1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

ParallaxBill

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Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Well, I'm 50 and as I mentioned in the other post, I have plenty of experience with the SB chevy. If I ever need to set hydraulic lifters in a SB Chevy I will continue to do as I always have. I set em like Chevy has always recommended at least until the late 80's (haven't messed with them built later than that) and that is one turn (1/4 turn at a time) after the slack (push rod end play) has been taken up. This sets the plunger inside the lifter at a nice safe place that is good for reliability pretty much for the entire life of the engine. No need to monkey with them ever after that. If you have one start clattering especially upon 100,000 miles+ then you will probably be looking at an exhaust cam lobe being worn out, not a lifter. It happened often in Chevy small blocks before their adaptation of roller cams and lifters. :):)

Some of you here really need to read some basic engine books like some of the ones Motor (manuals) put out over the years. :):)

BTW, setting the lifter plunger at 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 or whatever turn has no effect on lift or duration on hydraulic liftered Chevy small blocks once the lifter bleeds out. It only sets the plunger in a shallower or deeper position in the lifter body. Don't believe me? Read up on it in a well known book on small block Chevys.
 

John_S

Rear Admiral
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Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

This is a very easy read: http://www.corvettesdownunder.com.au/docs/adjusting_chevy_valve_lash.pdf

How to Adjust Your Chevy Valve Lash
by Lars Grimsrud
Colorado Corvette Crazies (CCC)
The Ultimate Corvette Tuning & Beer Drinking Fraternity
Lafayette, CO Rev. A 2-7-01

This tech paper will discuss the adjustment of Chevrolet hydraulic lifters (“valve lash”).

The procedure outlined here differs slightly from the Service Manual, and is based on my years of experience doing this work in the quickest, least painful, most economical way while keeping the level of quality high. It is recognized that other people will have different methods of doing things, and may disagree with specific methods and procedures that I use.

Overview, Theory and my Thoughts on Lash Settings:
Hydraulic lifters are wonderful little innovations which reduce valve train wear and virtually eliminate required valve train maintenance.

Without the use of hydraulic lifters (mechanical lifters), the valve train must be adjusted with a certain amount of “slop” in it (“lash”). This lash is necessary, since the various components in the valve train tend to “grow” and expand as they heat up from normal engine operation. As the components “grow,” they take up a large portion of the lash, but some lash must still be retained as a safety margin. If there were no lash, there would be a risk of the valves not closing fully, resulting in poor engine performance and burnt valves. This lash, however, results in a bit of valve train noise as parts “clank” together, and this clanking induces wear of the valvetrain components. This wear, in turn, requires that the lash be re-adjusted at regular intervals. If only there were a way to eliminate the lash…. hmmmmm….

Enter the hydraulic lifter. Believe it or not, but the internal components of a hydraulic lifter are the most precise, close-tolerance parts on a vehicle. The basic operation and principle of the hydraulic lifter is as follows:

When the hydraulic lifter is at the “low” point in its bore (the valve is closed), the body of the lifter is exposed to pressurized oil in the lifter oil galley. The lifter body has a little hole in it, and this hole allows oil to enter and/or exit the lifter body. The pressurized oil in the galley thus enters the body of the lifter, and pushes lightly on a plunger in the roof of the lifter body. This plunger is about a half inch in diameter, giving it a total area of approximately 0.12 square inches. If you’re running 60 pounds of oil pressure, that means that the oil is pushing upwards on the plunger with a force of about 11 pounds max. This 11 pound force is not enough to open the valve, but it will remove all slack out of the valve train.

As soon as the lifter starts moving upwards in its bore (the cam is opening the valve), the oil hole in the lifter body moves out of alignment with the oil galley. The lifter body is sealed off, and oil can’t get in or out of the body. The lifter, thus, goes into “hydraulic lock,” and suddenly acts like a solid lifter. The oil under the plunger is not compressible, so the lifter now opens the valve.

As the lifter comes down the bore after completing its valve opening chore, it is once again exposed to the oil pressure in the lifter galley, and the pressurized oil once again assures that all lash is taken out of the valvetrain before repeating the opening cycle. As the valvetrain wears, the oil pressure simply constantly pushes the plunger upwards to remove any slack caused by the wear. The plunger can be pushed upwards in the lifter bore within the design limitations of the lifter, and will eventually be stopped by a snap ring retainer in the top of the lifter body. Once the plunger reaches the retainer, it can no longer provide effective valve train adjustment, and the valvetrain will start making noise.

The distance the plunger is compressed into the lifter body when the lifter is at the low point in its bore is referred to as “lifter preload.” This is the “valve lash” or “valve adjustment” on a hydraulic lifter. The further the plunger is depressed, the more wear the lifter can “absorb” before reaching the snap ring retainer. However, the more the plunger is depressed, the more prone the engine becomes to “lifter float” or “valve float.”

As we noted earlier, the oil in the lifter is not compressible. If, somehow, the lifter body were filled with just a few drops of oil too many, and the lifter were moving so fast in its bore that the oil did not have a chance to bleed out and re-stabilize the valvetrain lash at the bottom of the lifter travel, the lifter would keep the valve open when the valve should be closed. Further, if aggravated, this condition could cause the lifter to open the valve beyond its design limitations, out of time with the intended valve cycle. This is what is known as “lifter float” or “valve float.” It can have disastrous consequences if the valve were to hit the piston. We, therefore, adjust hydraulic lifters with some pre-load, but not too much. So what’s the right spec…?

Obviously, we can eliminate valve float completely by simply adjusting our lifter pre-load such that the plunger is right at the top of the lifter body; right up against the snap ring retainer. The problem with this approach is that there is the possibility of the same hydraulic lock conditions exerting so much force on the snap ring that the snap ring is forced out. With nothing retaining the plunger, we would have the same disastrous ending to our engine… Also, with no plunger travel available, the non-maintenance feature of our hydraulic valvetrain is defeated, and we must now constantly adjust the valves as if they were mechanical.

The factory setting on a Chevy lifter pre-load is ? to 1 turn lifter preload with the lifter on the low side of the cam (valve closed). This eliminates valvetrain maintenance for at least 100,000 miles, and is a good compromise setting. However, it can allow the valves to float at rpms as low as 5700. This, effectively, becomes a factory-installed rev limiter: if they can make the valves float lightly around 6000 rpm, GM can reduce warranty claims from customers over-revving their engines. Hey… these boys and girls designing this stuff in Detroit aren’t dummies, are they?

So for a performance application, we split the difference. A ? turn lifter pre-load will raise the rpm limit of the engine, yet it will still provide quite a bit of plunger travel so the lifter can do its valvetrain wear adjustment thing.. It will also keep the plunger away from the snap ring retainer, and it will keep our operation safe. Safe, reliable, improved performance and good durability/life: what more could you ask for?
 

ParallaxBill

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

John I agree with your last post almost entirely except with the definition that I learned of valve float. Valve float (hydraulic of solid, as I learned of it is the point at which the valve does not close on it's seat as the lifter comes off contact with the cam, thus the floating effect. This is detrimental mostly due to the stresses it places on the valve springs themselves with disastrous contact between valve and piston being the result in more extreme circumstances as in high lift performance cams and or domed pistons. Most stock motors when over revved will float the valves and damage the springs long before the chance of valve to piston contact. The clearances are just too much with stock applications.

What happens occasionally with hydraulic liftered engines is something called a "pumped up lifter" where at high revs the lifter fills with too much oil causing the valve to be held open symptomatically like normal valve float. The contact is still there with the cam lobe but the lifter has in effect lengthened the cam lift enough to keep the valve off it's seat. Usually this is temporary and no damage is done but it does make a racket and causes a misfire on that cylinder until the lifter bleeds back to it's normal position. This was the reason many hot rodders and racers bought "high bleed rate" lifters or adjusted their lifters to only 1/4-1/2 turn or even less because upon high rpm lifter pump up the time to bleed back to normal was much quicker. I've seen the later in action on my engines and it does help shorten the amount of time the lifter is dangerously off it's seat. Less oil to bleed out = less time the valve is pumped up.

I'm not arguing with you at all just stating a different look at the terminology of the issues we are discussing. :):)
 

John_S

Rear Admiral
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Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Bill,

I can't take credit for writing and explaining it in an easy to understand way.

Credit goes to:
Lars Grimsrud
Colorado Corvette Crazies (CCC)
The Ultimate Corvette Tuning & Beer Drinking Fraternity

I figured that last line would get the most respect. :D

I don't disagree, but since all the "float" and pump-up issues occur above 5500 rpms, can we agree it has no impact on our sub 5K engines?
 

ParallaxBill

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Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

"but since all the "float" and pump-up issues occur above 5500 rpms, can we agree it has no impact on our sub 5K engines?"

Amen to that!! ;)
 

MikDee

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Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Thank you John, it's a good read! I now have learned more, including a cleaner, easier, better way, to do static lifter adjustment. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks,,,lol,,, Peace to you Also!, and I value your opinion as well. Mike
 

MikDee

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Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Hey Parallax Bill, I just wanted to say, those old Motors manuals were my Bible way back when! Chiltons came along later, and put a different slant on things, but Motors was still my favorite, among other things, you could always depend on them to give you the accurate lift, duration, and timing on factory camshafts, up to date.
 

John_S

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Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Thank you John, it's a good read! I now have learned more, including a cleaner, easier, better way, to do static lifter adjustment. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks,,,lol,,, Peace to you Also!, and I value your opinion as well. Mike

Thanks for taking the time. I thought it would help clear some things up.
 

SuperNova

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Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Hey! When did this turn into a Love-fest!?!
 

ParallaxBill

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Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Hey, I'm just happy to talk Chevy small blocks or anything Chevy any time I can. I love em, although now I gotta Hemi. ;)

Still got a Chevy/GM L6 in the boat though.
 

John_S

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Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

SuperNova, all good discussions must finally come to an end. I am sure we will find something else to beat to death, in its place, in short order. :)
 

MikDee

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Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

You mean like beating a dead horse? probably so,,,lol
 

Buttanic

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Messages
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Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Yes it does make sense, a hydraulic lifter becomes just like a solid lifter once it fills with oil, it may have some cushion to it, but If you loosen the rockers, or tighten them, it is going to change lift, & duration, just like a solid lifter would.



The only thing that will change lift and duration on a hydralic lifter cam is lifter bleed down rate, the method of ajustment will not.
Of all the books I have studied by the masters of the small block Chevy, from talking to the cam makers when chosing a cam for my racing engines I have not read or been told one word about any particular setting method for hydralic lifters that will effect preformance either positively or negatively.
I suggest you read "How to Modify Chevy Small Block V8 Camshfts and Valvetrains" by David Vizard. Ther is a lenghty section on hydralic cams and lifters and absolutely no mention of any ajusting procedure that will yeild more or less power.
 

rodbolt

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Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

gotta disagree with mikdee and the compression test method as well.
on hyd lifters they are desined to bleed off and stay set at a particular preload, the cam profile sets lift and duration the lifter simply maintains lash at zero.
the stumble you hear when bogusly doing the adjustment running is simply the valve being held off the seat while the lifter is trying to bleed off.
thats why they say do it in 1/4 turn increments if you do it running,which is dumb anyway.
the cam profile on a solid lift cam is wildly different than hydrualic. the opening and closing ramps are very very different.
which is why you can get away with running hyd lifters on a solid lifter bump stick but not the otherway around.
its also why Rhoades lifters got so popular.
not that they work, its just that they can compensate for an engine builders mistake.
 
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