100:1 ratio - My Experience

[Stromzilla]

Apparently I wasn't qualified to speak on behalf of recommending using a quality oil designed to run at 100:1 ratios in premix-only applications. Well I'm back with some experience and the experience continues to build. Background first: The motor is a 1979 Evinrude 115hp 2-stroke. Unfortunately I hit a snafu with the engine when I discovered the gel seal had failed so I had to rebuild the engine entirely. What I discovered was a pretty disgusting carboned up mess, especially in the exhaust area but also 3 of the 4 pistons had rings that were locking up creating a blow-by situation which ultimately would have been a total disaster. Based on my experience with 2-stroke motors in general, and I have a fair amount of that (thank you very much), the heavy carbon buildup is from using cheap oil that flashes off too soon and that includes some TCW rated oil. The carbon I pulled out of my engine was 1" deep (in some areas) and had the consistancy of coffee grounds. So you guys running that cheap crap from Walmart beware, it simply isn't worth it and you'll ultimately pay the price, and I'm speaking to those running at 50:1 ratios. This engine by the way had been split open before to replace a piston that siezed probably due to a dirty carburetor or cheap oil causing a ring to lockup. Anyways the engine has been running just fine on 100:1 with very little smoke at idle. Startups are a breeze and it idles easily down to 500 rpm without missing a beat. The plugs have been checked twice and both times they showed to be burning very cleanly. To date I've only run about 40 gallons of pre-mix. I know, my skeptics are saying that's not enough so I will continue to report out as I progress through the summer. However, so far the old Evinrude performs no differently than all my other 2-stroke motors that I own that have been running on 100:1 for many years without issues. It really is impressive.

 

[JB]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

Your experience is contrary to that of OMC engineers, who recalled the 100:1 recommendation because of corrosion occurring in the crankcase when stored.

That recall had nothing to do with performance of TC-W3 oils in use, it was because 100:1 left the internal steel parts inadequately protected for storage.

There is no published evidence to back up your bash of Wal Mart's SuperTech branded Pennzoil/Quaker State products. Let me remind you that bashing is forbidden here. Many of us have run SuperTech exclusively (at both 24:1 and 50:1) for many years with none of the troubles you claim.

I think it is the know-it-alls that we need beware of.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

Sounds like a poorly maintained and/or over propped motor that needed to be decarbed and set up correctly.

I can say that in my 40+ years of using OB's I've never had a carbon build up issue. This includes using old oils that weren't much more than 30W motor oil. Even when I?ve done the decarb routine I?ve never had large clouds of smoke, or any other indication of severe carbon build up.

A little maintenance and the correct prop can go a long way in extending the life of an engine.

You didn?t say what oil you currently use at 100-1.

 

[coolguy147]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

i guess any engine is going to have carbon buildup whether very smalll to notice in the life of the engine or like ur problem.

but haveing a annual decarb with some seafoam cant hurt but im sure can help whether nothing changed or u get 10hp boost lol

 

[Stromzilla]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

All oils were not created equally and I can't speak on behalf of the OMC engineers that recalled their 100:1 oil. If they recalled it then they needed to do just that. That doesn't make all other 100:1 oils unusable.

ONDARVR - The particular oil I'm using is Amsoil's Saber 100 which is designed to be run at 100:1 ratios and that's what I'm doing.

Coolguy - I can't argue with your comment. However, the amount of carbon in my engine along with the stuck rings was excessive by any standard or guideline and the use of Seafoam was not going to fix the issue. By the way, I had been using Seafoam and I fully believe in that product. I've seen it do some amazing things with other engines I've worked on and will continue to use it.

JB - I can see you're a person fixed in his ways. If you choose to sarcasticly call me a "know-it-all" then go right ahead. I speak from experience and just because an oil meets the TCW specification doesn't make it a great oil. I've torn down engines after 2 hours of running on cheap oil only to find rings starting to stick. Personally speaking I want an oil to exceed, or how about blow away the TCW specification and give me the best protection I can possibly get. Can you say whether or not your oil can do that? You probably don't have a clue. If you're having good luck with your cheap oil then be my guest. But don't be telling people about using your cheap oil in all applications, they just might pay the price, and you should bar that from the forum too. Do you think BRP specifies an oil for their engines that just meets a specification? I doubt it. Cheap oil is not allowed in my garage and for good reason. Saving a couple of bucks by using cheap oil that goes into a multi-thousand dollar engine just sounds plain stupid.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

Well, I suppose that goes for "cheap" gas too. That cheap stuff will just kill your engine. But I seem to remember on a previous thread where the "cheap" Wal Mart oil exceeded the quality of the branded oils at three times the price. Go figure-- Me? If it burns, it is expendable and the cheapest I can find goes into the engine. But what to I know? I'm just a stupid, happy slob with engines 30 years old and still running.

But now, let's be fair. Aren't you also guilty of being just a little cheap by using an oil designed to be run at 100-1 in an engine designed to use 50-1 ratio?

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

OMC did not recall any oil. They changed their recommendations from running their motors at 100:1 back to running at 50:1
The recommendation to run all motors at 100:1 based on very anecdotal evidence on a sample of 1 motor is dubious, at best. Doesn't mean it's not true, but also doesn't mean it's true, either.

 

[Stromzilla]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

Your experience is contrary to that of OMC engineers, who recalled the 100:1 recommendation because of corrosion occurring in the crankcase when stored.

That recall had nothing to do with performance of TC-W3 oils in use, it was because 100:1 left the internal steel parts inadequately protected for storage.

There is no published evidence to back up your bash of Wal Mart's SuperTech branded Pennzoil/Quaker State products. Let me remind you that bashing is forbidden here. Many of us have run SuperTech exclusively (at both 24:1 and 50:1) for many years with none of the troubles you claim.

I think it is the know-it-alls that we need beware of.

Hey JB - I never mentioned a specific brand at Walmart...but you did. In fact I was in Walmart today and noticed they had OEM branded oils too. Are you trying to tell me their SuperTech is their cheapy brand of oil? Now hear hear this skipper - I will not mention oil by brands and I will continue to bash "cheap" oil. Also, I'm curious to hear about your experience with engine tear-downs. How many have you done? From what venue do you speak from or are you a "know-it-all" without credentials. My engine ran for years and years on bad oil until it finally couldn't. That doesn't make it a good oil that was being used in it. By the way, if that 100:1 oil you mentioned didn't protect then it probably didn't meet the specification at the time or the specification didn't cover that aspect of performance. If you want to turn this thread into an oil thread then let's do it my friend. I'll go head to head with you any time on the subject. But all I really wanted to do was to report out on my experience with the 100:1 that I'm using in my 1979 Evinrude 115 outboard.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

Let me remind everyone that the mark or the word quality relates to the phrase " Does the product do what it is supposed to do" Thus, the term "High Quality" is misleading--like 200%! A product either is a quality product or it is not!

So, wanting an oil to well exceed the requirements is much like using 100 octane fiel in an engine only requiring 87. TCW-3 has certain set specifics regarding use, in the engine and oil performance. SO: exceeding TCW requirements will not gain you anything, just like high octane will not.

You can argue all you want, but I suspect your experience and education falls far short (as does mine) of the collective experience and education of the oil and engine designers and engineers.

 

[fishrdan]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

The particular oil I'm using is Amsoil...

I used to be an Amsoil believer until I had a mechanical failure by following their extended service recommendations, almost 2x the manufacturer's service schedule. The oil of the failed transmission was tested at an independent lab and they found it to be over run, oxidized, etc, and should have been replaced long ago. If I would have replaced the oil when the manufacturer said to, I would have saved myself $2,000.

I'm not saying that Amsoil is bad. But, you should follow the manufacturer's recommendations. Running a low oil ratio or extended service schedule could be an expensive lesson. I'm not rolling the dice anymore...

(While my experience isn't a 2 stroke engine, I consider running 1/2 the oil in a 2 stroke, just as bad as doubling the mileage on an oil change.)

 

[Boss Hawg]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

Hey JB - I never mentioned a specific brand at Walmart...but you did. In fact I was in Walmart today and noticed they had OEM branded oils too. Are you trying to tell me their SuperTech is their cheapy brand of oil? Now hear hear this skipper - I will not mention oil by brands and I will continue to bash "cheap" oil. Also, I'm curious to hear about your experience with engine tear-downs. How many have you done? From what venue do you speak from or are you a "know-it-all" without credentials. My engine ran for years and years on bad oil until it finally couldn't. That doesn't make it a good oil that was being used in it. By the way, if that 100:1 oil you mentioned didn't protect then it probably didn't meet the specification at the time or the specification didn't cover that aspect of performance. If you want to turn this thread into an oil thread then let's do it my friend. I'll go head to head with you any time on the subject. But all I really wanted to do was to report out on my experience with the 100:1 that I'm using in my 1979 Evinrude 115 outboard.

All i can add is i'm really happy that your 100:1 is working for you
Don't really see the point of it but still happy------
Think i'll stick to my present ratio
BTW- I'm courious to know how bashing one of our respected Moderators is going to gain you any---- aww Hell, lets just see how it goes

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

<insert sound of thread closing>

 

[coolguy147]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

All oils were not created equally and I can't speak on behalf of the OMC engineers that recalled their 100:1 oil. If they recalled it then they needed to do just that. That doesn't make all other 100:1 oils unusable.

ONDARVR - The particular oil I'm using is Amsoil's Saber 100 which is designed to be run at 100:1 ratios and that's what I'm doing.

Coolguy - I can't argue with your comment. However, the amount of carbon in my engine along with the stuck rings was excessive by any standard or guideline and the use of Seafoam was not going to fix the issue. By the way, I had been using Seafoam and I fully believe in that product. I've seen it do some amazing things with other engines I've worked on and will continue to use it.

JB - I can see you're a person fixed in his ways. If you choose to sarcasticly call me a "know-it-all" then go right ahead. I speak from experience and just because an oil meets the TCW specification doesn't make it a great oil. I've torn down engines after 2 hours of running on cheap oil only to find rings starting to stick. Personally speaking I want an oil to exceed, or how about blow away the TCW specification and give me the best protection I can possibly get. Can you say whether or not your oil can do that? You probably don't have a clue. If you're having good luck with your cheap oil then be my guest. But don't be telling people about using your cheap oil in all applications, they just might pay the price, and you should bar that from the forum too. Do you think BRP specifies an oil for their engines that just meets a specification? I doubt it. Cheap oil is not allowed in my garage and for good reason. Saving a couple of bucks by using cheap oil that goes into a multi-thousand dollar engine just sounds plain stupid.

i can argue with ur statement. seafoam is a great product and if done correctly effiecently and properly it will do wonders.

such as squirting the stuff in ur cylinders very thorough when its hot and let sit running very concentrated mixes. spraying through intakes.

 

[JB]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

SuperTech is the brand name WalMart uses on oils it buys from the same people who make high priced "branded" oils. TC-W3 SuperTech meets or exceeds all standards that the "branded" TC-W3 oils meet or exceed.

They sell it for a lot less because they don't need to recover advertising, marketing and merchandizing costs from their customers.

It is very common for people who don't understand that to call it "cheap" and claim that it is of inferior quality.

Use what you wish, but we do not allow you to make untrue statements bashing people or products here.

I apologize if you felt I was calling you a "know-it-all". I was really suggesting the opposite.

 

[coolguy147]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

<insert sound of thread closing>

is that what happens when people have a creative disscusion here?

 

[WizeOne]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

FWIIW, I ran a 1979 115hp Evinrude, until 1988, on A***** 100:1 synthetic oil. It was pushing a 10 ft x 30 ft double deck, open, patio boat. It was used from late May to early September, about every other weekend. The boat was loaded with furniture and other supplies and would still pull an experienced slalom skier (albiet, knee deep in water)

In that time I never had one problem, I never changed the plugs and every spring it was the first motor (in our group of houseboats) to fire up quickly with very little smoke. When I sold the boat (I moved) in the summer of '88, I cleaned out my personal effects, hosed off the boat and took the new buyers for a test drive. They absolutely could not believe how that boat got with it.

Since that time, I have run every two cylce motor that I own, on the same oil. My chainsaw, string edger and blower are all 20 years old. Never had to clean a spark arrestor screen and with exception of my Echo String edger that just (this spring) needed a carb rebuild, I have never changed a spark plug in any of them. They all fire right up and do not smoke.

I'm still working on the last of 4 cases of oil that I bought back in the late '70's

If anyone tries it, just make sure you always mix it well before you use it. It doesn't settle out but takes a little extra care to get it mixed well.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

I suspected you were running a synthetic oil when you said 100-1, but you didn't say, that's why I asked. I have no problem with you running a synthetic product at whatever ratio you want and there's lots of people out there running 100-1 with it, so it must work. My issue was with claiming the stuck rings and heavy carbon build up was "only" because of cheap dino oil being run at 50-1. There are many reasons for carbon deposits and the oil is only one of the many possible suspects.

Synthetics do run cleaner and less carbon build up is to be expected, I've run both and have never had an oil issue with either type, so I don't stress over it.

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

Run any mixture you want in your motors, but DO NOT advise others to go against, what the manufacturer recommends for their particular motors.

when you get your Phd, in petrol lubrication, you can advise us, with research to back it up.

 

[wilde1j]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

Severe carbon buildup is NOT the result of 50:1 oiling, it's caused by one or more of the following:

a) Running too cold (i.e. thermostats removed, stuck, etc)
b) Overpropping
c) Consistently running at low power settings and never @ WOT, thinking your "helping" the motor last longer
d) Wrong spark plugs

I ran an '85 140 Johnson, bought new, for more than 900 hours, had it propped for 5900RPM, trolled lots and when I sold it had no evidence of much carbon (removed exhaust covers ... very little buildup). I used Carbon Guard for all the time I owned the motor and periodically would run for 5 to 10 minutes @ WOT. This motor always ran 50:1! There was a brief time OMC recommended 100:1, then backed off to 50:1.

 

[pecheux]

Re: 100:1 ratio - My Experience

I am experimenting with Amsoil 100:1 Saber also. Fisrt of all based on what I have read (not what I know) very few oil brands are made for 100:1 operation. I know Amsoil Saber, McCulloch (red), and another one who's name I forgot. The Amsoil and that other brand oil is colored green, McCullough was red. Obviously all other oil should be used at the recommended Mfg 50:1 ratio.

I am amazed how my 2 OB's run with the Saber oil (used at approx 90:1 for now) idle is steady and smooth and the idle shaking with my Force 15 is memories. I am still wondering if running at Wot should call for a 80-85:1 mix ? I can tell oil builds up in the cylinders since it does smoke when powered up from idling to Wot. This is my experimentation not a recommendation to anyone. d'hear ..lol

Based on my observations these 100:1 specifics oils are to outboards what STP is to car motors. I read an article that said OB mfg's protect themselves by recommending a 50:1 regardless if the OB's can run at a higher ratio. I also read that it's the oil specs that count ... not the mfg recommendations and based upon some of the post read so far many writers have been using some of the 100:1 mix oils without any problems.

I will lookup for this article again and if I find it will post the link on this tread .