120 Force intermittent starter problem

[Trevornollmeyer]

Please forgive me if I'm duplicating a post. I read several before deciding to post this and didn't see anything that applied to my situation.

The last time we had our boat out, I had trouble starting it. I'd turn the key and the starter wouldn't reliably engage. When I turned the key, it seemed like a dead battery; the starter would turn slowly and sound like it was cranking slowly. it would also only crank for a second or two at a time.

When it first happened, I was able to remedy the problem by tightening down the wing nut on the positive battery terminal. This worked several times until I couldn't get it started at all. We were nine miles up the lake on a week day with very few boats out-yikes. When I looked at the battery, the postive terminal was very hot. The wing nut appeared to have fused to the positive post. The two cables on the positive terminal weren't making good contact. I managed to get it started by using the battery cover to press down on the cables so good contact was made on the post. We made it back to our campsite. While cruising up the lake, the cable was making intermittent contact with the post, I'd see the guages working off and on.

Anyway, we got it started again and made it home. Once there, the threaded post on the positive side of the battery tore right out of the battery itself. There was some corrosion. I've replaced the battery and one of the cables/leads on the positive side. I cleaned up all of the cables with baking soda and some sandpaper. They all look good now.

When i got everything together, The starter still seems to crank slowly when I turn the key. I was able to start it in the driveway with some earmuffs and everything else electrical works great.

I'm guessing it's the starter or solenoid. I'm not all that mechanically experienced, so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Trevor

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 120 Force intermittent starter problem

Check the negative cable where it attaches to the motor (engine block) itself. This is often an over looked item.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: 120 Force intermittent starter problem

Fill out the profile.You might be close to someone who can help.
Take your starter apart.Check the brushes and magnets.J

 

[Trevornollmeyer]

Re: 120 Force intermittent starter problem

So, I've cleaned all the connections. The problem persisted. So, I pulled the starter off and removed the two through bolts. This is the first starter I've been inside, so I'm really not sure what to look for. Can anyone give me an idea what I'd be looking for in a bad starter?

Thanks,
Trevor

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: 120 Force intermittent starter problem

Dirt/grit wore brushes.Dirty commutator.Post a pick.
Here is a pic of some brushes.They are still servicable but won't last too long.The grit came from inside the starter.
Starters can be had for $65 to 250.Depends on how rich you are.J

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 120 Force intermittent starter problem

About the only thing you can do is clean or replace the brushes. They're less than 15 bucks, but if the windings themselves are bad, then you can either have a shop re-build it or get a replacement starter.

If the starter has not been severely over heated, the windings are probably OK.

 

[ezimmerm]

Re: 120 Force intermittent starter problem

I'm certainly leaning towards the starter also. In fact your experience was about the same as mine. (Melted down a post on the battery, starter was really slow etc)

Bought a new merc starter ($205 overnighted) and the force starts with just the blip of a key. The old one was a 1988 vintage and like the pictures
jerry posted, had tons of grime + worn internal parts.

If you've got one (or a radio shack nearby) you can also get a multimeter and measure the resistance in your cables as well as the voltage its delivering to make sure the cables/corrosion are not the issue.

 

[erikpn]

Re: 120 Force intermittent starter problem

I'm certainly leaning towards the starter also. In fact your experience was about the same as mine. (Melted down a post on the battery, starter was really slow etc)

Bought a new merc starter ($205 overnighted) and the force starts with just the blip of a key. The old one was a 1988 vintage and like the pictures
jerry posted, had tons of grime + worn internal parts.

If you've got one (or a radio shack nearby) you can also get a multimeter and measure the resistance in your cables as well as the voltage its delivering to make sure the cables/corrosion are not the issue.

Do this first before buying a new starter. Always start with the cheap and easy stuff, and deduct your way along. It could just as easily be this stuff as a bad starter. Make sure all your connections are tight. Check your wiring and the solenoid. If poor contact or any of that is giving too much resistance, it will cause your starter to spin slowly or not at all.

A quick shadetree mechanic method of testing your starter is to remove it, clamp it down securely and briefly connect power directly from the battery to your starter with thick jumper cables and see if it spins quickly. Be careful if you do this though.

 

[Trevornollmeyer]

Re: 120 Force intermittent starter problem

Ok, I know it's almost a month later, but here's my status: Took the starter to a starter shop. They replaced the armature (but declined to mention that for another $10, I could buy a whole new starter.)

Took that home and put it back in the motor, still nothing, only a clicking sound. Took the whole boat to the starter shop, who said it was a problem at the negative terminal on the starter. They cleaned up the bottom of it and replaced the insulator. Took that home and put it together. I heard a clicking sound. I replaced the solenoid. I just put that in and put all the cables back on.

I turned the key and heard a single click. I tried that several times before seeing smoke coming from the negative terminal on the battery. The negative post melted out of the battery.

i'm fairly sure I put the new solenoid in correctly. I have checked and cleaned all the electrical connections I can think of. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Trevor

 

[mrdibs1]

Re: 120 Force intermittent starter problem

Bench test the starter to rule out problems with it. If it's not the starter, the positive cable must be shorting somewhere else.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 120 Force intermittent starter problem

The terminal on the starter should the positive connection, not the negative connection. If you've hooked the negative cable up to the starter, then you're shorting out the battery to ground. That's why nothing happens except for a clicking sound when you turn the key and the cables get hot.

The negative cable goes to the engine block, the positive cable goes to the stud on the starter.

If the cables are hooked up correctly, then I'd look at the solenoid and starter again. Can you post some pictures of the solenoid and starter?

 

[USMCMatt]

Re: 120 Force intermittent starter problem

I find this thread funny because my boat starts cold that exact same way everytime and I just have came to accept it. Warm it fires right up. Good luck on your search!

 

[Trevornollmeyer]

Re: 120 Force intermittent starter problem

I think I mis-typed earlier. The connection to the starter is a black cable, which is why I called it the negative one. It runs from the solenoid to the starter... Positive, right?

Ok, my computer skills are somewhat lacking. I can't seem to get the photos to upload correctly. I did put them on facebook. Here's the link:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=274338&id=743309852&saved

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 120 Force intermittent starter problem

From what I see in the pictures, the cables are connected correctly.

Just to make sure we've got the whole picture here....This problem started out with intermittent starting, and when it did start, the starter turned over slowly. You fixed the intermittent connections. You took the starter to a shop and they replaced the armature. Now the starter won't even engage, and you hear a clicking sound? You replaced the solenoid, but still just hear a clicking sound and the negative terminal melted on the battery. If this is correct then your problem is a dead short. You may have also damaged the battery. Hopefully not.

Anyways, you can check the starter with a set of jumper cables.

1. First thing is to disconnect the lanyard from the Kill Switch so the motor won't actually start. It'll turn over but the ignition system (spark) will be shut off.

2. Disconnect the positive cable from the starter.

3. On one end of the jumper cable, connect the negative clamp to the starter frame, or engine block. Connect the positive clamp to the stud that had the cable from the starter solenoid.

4. Connect the the other end of the jumper cable to a know good working battery in the following manner. Negative clamp to the negative post on the battery. Take the positive clamp and just touch it momentarily to the positive post of the battery. You'll see a pretty good arc and the starter should engage for a second. This is normal. If the starter does not turn over, then it's bad. Don't engage the starter for more that a few seconds at a time, especially if it doesn't turn over.

 

[Trevornollmeyer]

Re: 120 Force intermittent starter problem

Victory! I tested the starter and it just sparked and smoked. I took it back to the starter shop. They found the insulator inside the starter was damaged and was causing it to short out. I put it back in last night and it cranked over just fine. Hopefully I'll be able to get out on the water one more time.

Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[mikesdad]

Re: 120 Force intermittent starter problem

Starters can be had for $65 to 250.Depends on how rich you are.J

Where can I get one??? ( and I'm not rich )

Mine is done worn out.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 120 Force intermittent starter problem

Finally...... some good news Trevornollmeyer.

The shop that performed the work wouldn't be my first choice for repairs next time.