120 Looper Charge coil test

[hookedonjc]

If you have checked my other post you know I got some problems.
Heres where im at now. I ran it after repairing flywheel hub magnet and I lowered engine about 1 inch and nothing . I check my timing and again I have to back the stop screw almost all the way back out to get it at 18 deg BTDC. So I get it home and pull plugs and check it Joe Reeves way and it shhows about 26 deg BTDC. Then I have sparitic fire on tester. Now I have a firing problem so I got the book out and start checking. First disconnect kill wire and no change. Now checking Charge coil it is the original. I check with fluke 83 on AC volts on the Brown and Brown and yellow Heres the results
while cranking engine
Brown to Ground 9 Volts AC (Book says should
Brown/Yellow to Gnd 18 Volts AC be Zero)
Brown to Brown/Yellow 108 Volts AC ( Book calls for
175 Volts)
Between brown and brown/yellow reads 510 OHMs when I rotate flywheel by hand that changes
Am I testing this right ? Can I use the fluke meter on AC volts to get these measurments ? Book calls for a peak reading volt meter?
At least my trolling motor still works



Dont Ever Give Up

 

[hookedonjc]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

Sence last post i moved plug wires and coil wires and I found that the Port side will only fire a 1/8 inch gap and no 7/16 so is this telling me my stator is bad?

Dont Ever Give Up

 

[jim_in_day]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

Yes you need a peak reading volt meter to properly perform those tests. The problem with a regular volt meter as I understand it (and I could well be wrong) is that they read an average, not the peak voltage. I have to assume that you now have fire, to it shouldn't be the trigger/ timer base. You said you lowered the engine an inch? why? What is WOT now? I don't remember what year your 120 is, so I can't look up the shop manual, but if you post it i will check .

 

[hookedonjc]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

OK I kinda thought thats what they were talking about I think its a true RMS meter. Any way I will give you a brief history.
Motor 1990 120 Loper.
Rebuilt 4 years ago. Ever sence rebuild Ihad no power to get out of the hole and loss of WOT only get to 5200 RPM. I ran it with a fin for a couple years. I started looking into the problem and put a 7/16 spark tester on it and found eratic spark so I took it to a local mech and he put a power pack and timerbase on and it ran fine for 6 or so runs and now my problem is back Over the last month with the help of the guys here at Iboats I have found recirciulation hose routed wrong and fuel pump diaghpram busted and I also just found hub magnet loose under fly wheel. I have got all that repaired and still having problem.
On take off 2700 RPM and will only plane out if I move foward in the boat and then only 5200 RPM at WOT. I have tried disconnecting the kill wire and the tan wire and the black and white wire and no change. I thought i had it the other day when I disconnected the tan wire but later realised it planed out because my fuel tank was almost empty (less weight in rear). I lowered the engine just for grins and giggels. Im going to put it back to original setting. Somting that puzzels me is when I set the timing at WOT with plugs out and 7/16 tester on #1 and set it 4 deg less than what book calls for (Joe Reeves method) I have about half of the adjustment screw left but when i check it under load I have to move adjustment almost as far as it will go to get it at 18 deg BTDC. I bring back home and check it with plugs out and its way too far out reading about 26 deg BTDC Somthing Wrong There I Know.But what? Yes I did get it firing again not realy sure what I did but I put it all together and ran it on the hose and pulled plug wire off one at a time and noticed a differance in the engine on each one. Im thinking about getting new coils and new plug wires . You got any checks Oh yea the fuel seems to be fine I put a clear piece in and no air bubbles. and Boggs when I hit the electric primer. Its like weak fire or somthing

Dont Ever Give Up

 

[Seasport]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

If you go to the following link you will be able to download the Rapair troubleshooting guide which has detailed troubleshooting information for ignition systems:

http://rapair.com/Forum/tabid/247/forumid/1/threadid/7/scope/posts/Default.aspx

There is a section there that helps you troubleshoot no fire or intermittent fire on one bank. I'm a bit suspicious that you seem to be getting a different voltage between the brown wire and ground and brown/yellow wire and ground. The manual says in this case to swap the connections and see if the low reading stays on the same stator wire. If it does the stator is bad.

 

[hookedonjc]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

Thanks a bunch Ill try some of the tests tomorrow. Theres more than my manual has. and I should be able to just multiply the volt reading I get by 1.414 and get the peak reading. This thing is putting up a fight but I told my wife I will not give up. I can buy a couple parts for the price of labor. I figure I got to buy a part I just dont know which one.
Ill post my test results tomorrow

Dont Ever Give Up

 

[Seasport]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

You can't really get the peak reading by multiplying by 1.414. This only applies if you are measuring a true sine wave which you aint. You'll only get an indication of voltage with a normal rms meter.

I'm thinking about your timing differences running vs static. Do you have quickstart on that motor? This advances the timing by 10 degrees when the motor is cold. For Joe's method to work, I think you need to disable the quickstart by grounding out the temp sensor wire to the powerpack. Someone else may be able to verify this

 

[hookedonjc]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

Yeap I got Quick start I will try groundig it and see where its at.

Dont Ever Give Up

 

[hookedonjc]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

Nope no change on timing when I ground the white / black. still reading 26 BTDC. I adjusted back to about 15 BTDC. I could not get the accurate readings without the peak adapter but just the VOM I read
Brown to Gnd 68 VAC little change + - on both(the last reading I posted it was unhooked from power pack )
Brown to White 68 VAC
On the orange wire going to the coils I read about 100 VAC or so
I guess I just need to buy the adapter and load tester for the coils
Port side timer base the connector with the white wire i read
White to Blue 46 Ohms
White to Purple 46 Ohms
White to Green 46 Ohms
White to Pink 46 Ohms
Stator resistance
Brown to Brown /Yellow 510 OHMs The trouble shooting guide said it should be 1000 OHMs My book says it should be 480 +- 25 Ohms Whose right?
Orange to Orange /Black 100 Ohms
What would cause timing to change when I stick the engine in the water and get her at true WOT.
Is it a concern to be hooked to the brown and brown/ yellow wires and see the resistance change when I turn the flywheel. It jumps all over the place even shows OL for a nano sec. I pull the fly wheel off and it just stays a steady reading about 510 Ohms but as soon as I ease the fly wheel back on any movement in the wheel changes the reading any where from 1000 to OL





Dont Ever Give Up

 

[hookedonjc]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

Any other option on taking these peak voltage measurments.
Where is the best place to buy the stator and coils and wires?

Dont Ever Give Up

 

[alden135]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

Freekin loopers. Your're going through all the same crap I have for the past 2 years. I've given up. I hope you can fix yours.

You can get a peak reader on the internet for around $100 or an adaptor in the $40 range.

 

[Seasport]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

OK, well it looks like you can't use Joe's method with a quickstart motor. Set your timing at WOT underway or on the trailer - that way you know you're getting it right. Maybe your timing has been wrong all along - hence lack of power.

Have you measured the compression recently by the way?

I think you're OK with the 500 ohms on your charge coil. It depends on the stator used in that motor. The resistance change you see in the charge coil as you rotate the flywheel may be due to the fact that you are inducing voltage in the coli which is upsetting the meter. The ohm meter works by passing a small current through the circuit and measuring the voltage drop. The resistance should be steady when the flywheel is stationary.

You said that the problem went away for a while when you put in a new powerpack. This suggests that it was a powerpack problem. Faulty colis can cause a powerpack to go out. Just a thought. Maybe your powerpack is bad again.

Also check out
http://outboardparts.com/omc/troubleshooting/trublshtinghlp.htm

 

[hookedonjc]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

WOW maybe thats been a problem a all along. this is the first ive heard that I couldnt use the this method. He even told me to a long time ago on a previous post. So am I safe to set it on the trailer At WOT.
So check this out isnt grounding the white/Black wire the same as taking it out of Quick Start after the first five seconds. To my understanding it starts in Quick start for first five seconds no mater if it has reached the 96 deg temp to take it out . Seems like jumping it to ground would eliminate the Quick Start.
I have watched it with timing light when first cranking in the Quick start it advances about 9 deg then goes to normal. You can hear this in the sound of the engine also.
I realy belive the pack is fine because i had taken it to another mech and he threw a new pack on it and said go try that. Didnt change anything.


Dont Ever Give Up

 

[Seasport]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

Have a look at this thread for info on how to set timing on the trailer.

http://forums.iboats.com/bbBoard.cgi?a=viewthread;fid=28;gtid=1154845;gpid=1156404#gpid1156404

Not sure about disabling the Quickstart. I thought that would be the case. It's all a function of the internal electronics. I've asked Dhadley to see if he knows.

 

[hookedonjc]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

Hey thanks for the info. I raised the engine back up today and I guess im gona try it again. Buy what you said about the stator it should be OK right. Im gona go ahead and buy new coils and plug wires.
I noticed the other day when I pulled each wire off one at a time while running two of them zapped me right thrugh the boot. Is this normal? and also when Im checking timing on #1 if # 3 plug wire gets within a inch or so of the clamp I see # 3 flash on the flywheel. I tried wraping 33 electrical tape around the wire but it still done it. if I move it away some all I see is #1. Im off work recovering from back surgery so I got plenty of time to tinker.


Dont Ever Give Up

 

[hookedonjc]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

I might of Boo Booed. I set the Hub back after it came loose. I didnt see any line up marks so I positioned it to where I had about half of adjustment on WOT stop and read 14 deg BTDC the Joe Reeves method. Now im finding out that I cant use this method with Quickstart. I get it in the water and check it and I have to adjust all the way in to get it to 18 deg BTDC. So having said that I think I put it back in the wrong spot. I know most folks would just go buy a new flywheel. $700 is whats making me try to salvaege mine. There are three small tits on the hub part that goes against the wheel. they will line up with the three pulling holes in two different directions. Is this where it should line up ?

Dont Ever Give Up

 

[hookedonjc]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

Just went for it. I I got the hub back off and repositioned it. Just got to check it in the water now. runs great on the hose. timing light shows up realy good on all four. I can see the quickstart engage and and return to normal.
Question before I spend another hundred If some of my coils and plugwires are bad would it run this good on the hose? And also out on the water overall it runs good I need about 700 more RPM to get it out of the hole. Other than feeling the resistance of the water pump impeller it turns by hand smooth. Should i try looking at a prop bent or somthing. Just trying to figure out where to throw the next hundred. This is somthing I havent realy mentioned before but when I do get it on plane It just dont seem to want to get on that sweet spot. Years ago I could get her trimed just right and you could feel it get on the pad and also see RPM drop about 400. I cant get there now not even with fin. Just thought I would throw that out there PROP? Maybe I should try to slick up the bottom of the boat

Dont Ever Give Up

 

[Seasport]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

I think you need to make sure she's timed right before you go any further. From what you've said, I'm not convinced you've got it right. Check the timing at WOT either while underway (hanging off the back) or with the boat on the trailer. That way you know it's right.

If the timing is OK and you're not developing full power. Then you need to investigate further.

The fact that you are seeing number 3 cylinder light up when checking timing is probably just because you are getting coupling between that wire and the timing light clamp. I wouldn't worry about that. You can move the clamp to each of the plug wires in turn and make sure you'e getting fire on that cylinder. Maybe nothing wrong with the coils. Are you still getting weak spark on one bank?

 

[hookedonjc]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

OK I took her down to the water again. I got it up to about 4000 RPM WOT and shot the timing and 18 deg BTDC is what I saw. I tried moving trailer up some to get more RPM but gave up at 4000 I gues thats enuff. Got it off the trailer and want get on plane. I lean foward and 10 or so seconds later she planes out. I can get it trimed ALL the way up and run about 5600 RPM 50 MPH engine sounds good. Just sumtin not right still. I still can tell its not getting on the pad like it used to. I got $500 of ignition parts and im still gona have to put the FIN back on i guess.
Question is
Prop or ignition ?
Should I just settle for less of an engine or keep looking as long as you guys can give me any ideas ill keep looking but I at the end of the rope

Dont Ever Give Up

 

[Seasport]

Re: 120 Looper Charge coil test

5600 rpms at 50mph doesn't sound so bad. What prop pitch have you got? You could work out the slip figures and see what you've got.
See http://www.rbbi.com/folders/prop/propcalc.htm
You should be aiming for 10% or better.
The folks over on the props forum will be able to help you get the best setup.

Have you checked the compression lately?

Your boats not carrying extra water somewhere is it?

When you replaced the powerpack that last time, did it leap out of the hole better all of a sudden?