140 Looper loss in power

[Riley C]

Hi guys,

Im having issues with power and and wot revs and pretty stuck on this one actually. Today I went for a run and we could barely get a skier out of the water.

The engine would get over 5k and really labour’s in 2-3k rev range. Usually handles 6k at 85km.

The compression is 110psi on all four.

I did another lync in the test tank. With idle at 800 and slightly moves in out of that.

I don’t get how all of a sudden there is barely any juice in the power band. Can out of sync do this but idle fine?

What is the absolute best lync method on the loopers? My genuine omc states different to joe reeves. Joe says bisect point and roller centre when valve plates start opening.....? Omc says centre at start but I have bogged out from this.

Is there another area I should be looking? Sparks on all cylinders otherwise I wouldn’t be getting 70km/hr.

I have a 1994 130 spare. So could swap some parts out that. Such as powerpack if needed.

Tried, carbs have been cleaned, new plugs and leads. Hoses and filters are new also.

Two trips ago we had what was thought to be a fouling plug, idle to long. With power loss at wot in and out really starting around. Plugs were replaced but full power not restored. I get spark to all cylinders.



Any suggestions would be a big help. It was running sweet for months.

 

[Riley C]

Reading into this more, I may test the coils for spark colour. The two new cdi coils were a little suspect, as originally I had 4 but two were dead on startup.

The last trip it was like a surging at cold and then when engine was hot, it just stop at no more than 5k revs. Has not gone over 5k since.

So what I may interpreted as bad plug, could be a bad coil?

Would this be possible?

Man it’s bear keeping a 32yr old engine alive.

 

[Faztbullet]

If its down a 1000 RPM that's usually loss of a cylinder..either fuel, spark or intake. The loopers have problems with reed block gaskets blowing and reed block coming loose.

 

[racerone]

Check crankcase compression on the cylinder with the fouled plug.

 

[Riley C]

If its down a 1000 RPM that's usually loss of a cylinder..either fuel, spark or intake. The loopers have problems with reed block gaskets blowing and reed block coming loose.

Cheers Fazt,

Just trying to eliminate a couple things.

I have cleaned all the carbs down. I know they are working because on idle i cupped the face of the carbs to feel it sucking through. It drops out of idle when you do that on each cylinder.The new vacuum fuel pump has done 20hrs. All new lines including within the manifold to each carb. There's no excess fuel sitting in the intake or anything.

I have just always been suss on the CDI coils as I bought four and two were dead before install. The ohm test on them were within spec but they dead as dead.

The surging last trip is what got me.

So I'm have been a little suss on the other two against the good old OMC.

 

[Riley C]

I got some testing done on the stator and pack. See photos below.

I’ll do a live test from pack to coils tomorrow.

Most of the ohm and diode tests were within range.

Do i need to make a DVA to test the pack to the coils and make sure they are over 150v to the coils?

Any advice would a big help.

Race,

How I check the crank compression from normal compression test? I have 110psi on all four cylinders.

 

[Riley C]

I found a little water in my fuel and in the carb throat/plates. It somehow got past my water separator.

Would this cause a loss of 1000rpm?

This demon of a motor will be the death of my marriage lol.

Thanks guys.

 

[Faztbullet]

Pull a fuel sample and let it set. Water in carb throats are normal when humidity is high due to condensation

 

[Riley C]

Pull a fuel sample and let it set. Water in carb throats are normal when humidity is high due to condensation

Thanks Fazt,

Yeah a little bit of water was in the fuel, I wouldn't think it would drop power 1k though???

When it all went down at the start of it would surge at 6k and now it doesn't reaches over 5k. 2-3k is not very powerful either.. Once we get on the plan though 5k at 70km/hr, not the usual 85 at 6k.

 

[Bosunsmate]

Reading into this more, I may test the coils for spark colour. The two new cdi coils were a little suspect, as originally I had 4 but two were dead on startup.

The last trip it was like a surging at cold and then when engine was hot, it just stop at no more than 5k revs. Has not gone over 5k since.

So what I may interpreted as bad plug, could be a bad coil?

Would this be possible?

Man it’s bear keeping a 32yr old engine alive.

Ive a 40 year old one and its as easy as making toast. I find if you put them to bed properly, especially draining the carbs they are roaring to go at the next outing

 

[Riley C]

OK boys,

So over the weekend I did the following.

1. Found water bubbles at bottom of carbs. So cleaned them all down.
2. Replaced the water separator as it obviously wasn't working anymore by letting water in.
3. Cleaned all the hoses and fuel pump at motor.
4. Replaced new gates fuel hose with new marine mercury hose from motor filter/pump to separator filter.
5. Purged new line and filters.

You know after doing all this somehow crap still got into bowls of carbs after cleaning (From primer bulb maybe?), even found a couple water bubbles.
I definitely have all the flow correct and everything.

Got me beat how this is getting passed filters..... Not small particles hence why replaced all the hose to the carb manifold

I do now believe I'm getting somewhere. As yesterday in test tank #1 cylinder was dryer than others. Being the plug was a littler drier and the throat of the carb was dry as well. I re-cleaned the carb (photo) and put it back on. Idle isn't massively better, but it was easier to start since.

The shaking at low revs from 1-3k made me think an intermediate jet? Does this jet work together with the high speed at WOT? Would this explain 1k difference, stopping me at 5k as opposed 6k?

I just made a DVA adaptor tonight to test out tomorrow.

I'm scared next time on the water all this effort wont work.

Any advice, on hoses and what you blokes use? The marine guy said automotive hose can cause dirt particle issues in the lines. Which i have been having I guess.

 

[Riley C]

Ive a 40 year old one and its as easy as making toast. I find if you put them to bed properly, especially draining the carbs they are roaring to go at the next outing

Thank Bos,

 

[racerone]

Test run with timing light hooked up.----Test each cylinder.------Run to full throttle from idle.-----See how spark behaves.

 

[Riley C]

Test run with timing light hooked up.----Test each cylinder.------Run to full throttle from idle.-----See how spark behaves.

Hi Race

no 1 cylinder is the culprit. I tried swapping coils and plugs, wire. No spark

for some reason my dva is not reading off the coil wires to the pack.

however the timing light was the sign. I get nothing on the 1# but 720+ for every other cylinder.

i read about some black and yellow wire to the pack. To use as a test for voltage. I can’t find it...

i have attached a photo of the wiring near pack. Which could be the wire?

seems so strange I suddenly have a dead cylinder. I can’t see any melted gunk from stator, all ohms of stater within spec.

suggestions?

 

[Riley C]

So just to update.

Sorry it is Number 2 cylinder.

Now my issue is no spark at all. One the week #1 had a faint spark. Since then I have put timing light on it and there is ZERO!. All the other cylinders have Advance 740+ at idle (750rpm).

I have tried the following to get it going>

1. pulled black yellow stripe wire from pack to see if a stop circuit issue. All clear didn't turn over.
2. Swapped coils three times. Nothing
3. New plugs and leads to #2, nothing.
4. Fly wheel seems fine, i get charge to stator. Will DVA test this tomorrow. All ohms within CDI spec 42-45ohm.
5. Did a diode test off stator most point came 5.64
6. Checked continuity within #2 cylinder pack wire to see if faulty. All clear.

Do i just try a new pack, or is there another test I can do? Seems weird one cylinder dead but others are fine.

I notice there is a sound like loose vibration/fuzz coming from fly wheel area. But no melted looking goo or anything.

Explains a lot to why i was having surging at WOT and then cylinder dropping in out. Now it has totally dropped power to the cylinder. At least I know it's electrical now?????

Is there a way to fix the pack on that one cylinder?

 

[Riley C]

If I need a new pack. Can I use an 85 model 140 Cdi 113-3072 (I found one local brand new for $100) my current pack is 113-3101 ($225 on eBay). Is there a incompatibility between the these two? Both are for loopers...

 

[Bosunsmate]

I havent had time to read it all, but have you checked the timer base?
Perhaps the signal for that dead cylinder to fire isnt coming from the timing base

 

[Riley C]

I havent had time to read it all, but have you checked the timer base?
Perhaps the signal for that dead cylinder to fire isnt coming from the timing base

Hi Bos I did an ohm test on the trigger and all came in at between 42 and 45 ohm.

I don’t know how to do Dva while it’s connected and running.

Are there other tests?

i guess to take timing base out the stator has to first?

 

[Riley C]

I got two old packs from wreckers for $140 583037 and 583041. Both now have spark to all cylinders. Battery is charging so everything looks in place.

If it also turns out to be base I’ll get a new one. Hopefully not.

When the packs are supersede by 582260 I assumed better software?

 

[Bosunsmate]

Hi Bos I did an ohm test on the trigger and all came in at between 42 and 45 ohm.

I don’t know how to do Dva while it’s connected and running.

Are there other tests?

i guess to take timing base out the stator has to first?

You can just swap the inputs over to the powerpack and see if the trigger for that cylinder will now fire another cylinders coil. Dont have the spark plugs in of course as itl be firing out of sync/time