1964 850 wake up

[kax2000]

I am in the process of getting a 1964 850 running after being in hibernation for some time.
I am now on the L/U issues, which is still on the motor.
I wanted to replace the water pump so I can start it and check the integrity of the engine.
But, currently it does not shift back into neutral when the shift lever is in the forward position without force and ratcheting of the shift lever on the side of the motor.
Where to start?

 

[carholme]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

kax;

Do you have a s/n for the engine?

Have you disconnected the shifter cable and ensured that it shifts manually OK? With the cable disconnected and moving the shifter, does the cable feel OK? With the cable disconnected and manually shifting and still hearing the sound, you may have stripped splines on the upper/lower shift shaft or the coupling which goes between them.

At this point, why not just drop the lower unit and see how things look?

Gerry

 

[kax2000]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

kax;

Do you have a s/n for the engine?

Have you disconnected the shifter cable and ensured that it shifts manually OK? With the cable disconnected and moving the shifter, does the cable feel OK? With the cable disconnected and manually shifting and still hearing the sound, you may have stripped splines on the upper/lower shift shaft or the coupling which goes between them.

At this point, why not just drop the lower unit and see how things look?

Gerry

Thanks for the reply.

serial # 1686258

There are no controls or cables attached.
The engine is on an engine stand.
There is no sound, the shifter on the side of the motor just won?t move into neutral from the forward position without excessive force.

To drop the L/U is there anything I need to disconnect besides the nuts that attach it to the drive shaft housing?

 

[carholme]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

Here is the parts list for your engine:

http://www.crowleymarine.com/mercury-outboard/388.cfm

And here is a condensed version of a service manual. Allow the page to load for 30 seconds:

http://web.ebscohost.com/serrc/pdf?sid=3750bedb-f9de-4d20-a960-9429dae3d650@sessionmgr4&vid=4&hid=14

Have you removed the Tab/pickup underneath the anti-ventilation plate? You can see this on page 112 of the manual in the previous link. Let me know if you have a problem getting the manual and I will give you a hand.

Gerry

 

[kax2000]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

I was able to remove the L/U.
Are these the shift shaft splines ?
Should I be able to rotate this with ease?

 

[Mi duckdown]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

NOT to rain on your parade,BUT,I would check the compression before going further. The lowerend does not have to be attached to do so. MY .02
Probably ok, but why take a chance. If he top end is bad, you may not want to proceed forward.????

 

[carholme]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

kax;

Yes, those are the shift shaft splines. Use a pair of pliers with a rag around the shaft splines. You will find a large arc of free movement but when you come up against the shift cam, you will have a much smaller arc of movement for F/N/R.

Gerry

 

[FLATHEAD MAC]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

Just double check that the controler and lu are in same position when you goto put them back together

 

[kax2000]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

The issue is still there when I turn the shift shaft with pliers.
Once in forward it will not shift into neutral normally.
Do they make a spline socket that fits?

 

[jimg984]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

the splined shaft may be 180 degrees off,,,, turn the shaft to neutral then turn shaft 180 degrees and try f-n-r again

hope this works

 

[CharlieB]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

If a prior owner had installed the LU with the shift shaft incorrectly 'clocked' the cam could be in the wrong position, turning onto the backside of the ramp.

One direction (CCW) you should feel some resistance as the plunger slides up the cam to the Neutral detent, turning further the resistance increases a little until it snaps into the Reverse indent.

 

[jimg984]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

CharlieB,,, would that be the same as 180 degrees off??

 

[sutor623]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

Kax, when you turn the shift shaft into forward, turn the driveshaft CLOCKWISE. Does the propeller spin? Try and spin the prop in the other direction while still in forward, it should ratchet or pop as you turn it. Now pop the shaft into neutral (if you can) does the driveshaft and prop shaft spin freely from one another?? When you removed the lower unit oil was there a bunch of metal shavings stuck to the bottom drain plug? Was there any water in the L/U? Or was it completely dry with no oil at all??? If there was no oil or water was in it you just have a little rust in there, seizing things together. Id fill er up with L/U oil and try her again in the morning.

 

[kax2000]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

Kax, when you turn the shift shaft into forward, turn the driveshaft CLOCKWISE. Does the propeller spin? Try and spin the prop in the other direction while still in forward, it should ratchet or pop as you turn it. Now pop the shaft into neutral (if you can) does the driveshaft and prop shaft spin freely from one another?? When you removed the lower unit oil was there a bunch of metal shavings stuck to the bottom drain plug? Was there any water in the L/U? Or was it completely dry with no oil at all??? If there was no oil or water was in it you just have a little rust in there, seizing things together. Id fill er up with L/U oil and try her again in the morning.

Yes, the prop turns in the correct direction(s) in relation to what gear it is in...while spinning the drive shaft in a clockwise direction. There is ratcheting and a pop when manually spun in the opposite direction.


There was oil in the L/U. There was some water in the drained oil. Not magnetic drain plug.

While turning the shift shaft counter clockwise and with the upper reverse locking cam removed.
This is what seems to be happening.
F - will move with little or no resistance.
N - goes from F to N normal with some resistance.
R - from N to R alot of resistance but does go into gear. Very little movement before is drops to F.



Is this functioning correctly?

 

[sutor623]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

Well, it is supposed to have a lot of resistance before it drops into reverse, and just a little resistance when going from F to N. Now, how is the resistance when popping it out of reverse in the incorrect direction?

 

[sutor623]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

If I recall correctly, when I was checking my L/U for shifting issues, when I turned it past reverse, the spline turned but it did not ever leave reverse. There is a spring mechanism that will "pop" it out of reverse back into neutral. If the lower unit is not hooked into the shift linkage, it may pop right into forward. The reverse locking cam (the bottom one) did not allow for me to turn the shaft a full 360 degrees. It stopped from turning left or right. Not sure if yours is any different. I think that the spring mechanism is pretty strong, and most of us have not played around with the gears much without having it connected to a control box. Honestly man, I think that you are just fine. As long as you can get the motor into neutral when it is on the stand, I would just pop an impeller into it and give it a try. Start the motor up, see how well it flows water, and how well it shifts (grinds or smoothly) when the motor is on. No sense in stressing about something if you aren't truly sure that you have a problem in the first place.

 

[sutor623]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

Oh and one more thing. Check the socket that the shifter cam goes into (in the motors mid section) and make sure it isnt stripped either.

 

[CharlieB]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

Also take a good look at the tilt lock cam that you pulled off the shift shaft, they have a habit of wearing which adds a lot of resistance to the shifting. If there is much of a 'groove' worn into the reverse lock cam, replace it.

Hope you made note of its orientation as it is very important to have it locking at the correct position to keep the motor down before engaging Reverse.

 

[NWVintage]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

I have a '63 850, a '65 1000 and a '64 39. With all of my engines, it is always a little difficult to get into reverse if the engine is not running. I have found that it seems to have something to do with the snychronization of the gears inside the LU. If you rotate either the drive-shaft or the propeller just a bit (less than 5 degrees) as you are shifting into reverse, it slips in without issue. I don't know whether this is the way that it's supposed to be but I've not had any problems.

 

[kax2000]

Re: 1964 850 wake up

I have a '63 850, a '65 1000 and a '64 39. With all of my engines, it is always a little difficult to get into reverse if the engine is not running. I have found that it seems to have something to do with the snychronization of the gears inside the LU. If you rotate either the drive-shaft or the propeller just a bit (less than 5 degrees) as you are shifting into reverse, it slips in without issue. I don't know whether this is the way that it's supposed to be but I've not had any problems.

I did notice manually cycling through the gears with pliers and not spinning the drive shaft, sometimes it would not go into reverse. But while spinning the drive shaft by hand there were no issues going into reverse.
My original issue was once the shifter handle(on the side of the motor) was in the foward position(towards the transom) it would not go back into neutral with out jamming it and using excessive force. I have had no issues manually cycling the gears from F or R back into N(not spinning the drive shaft) while the L/U is off the motor. Looks like it might a shift linkage issue....broken or worn parts.