1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

bigdoug

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Dec 15, 2009
Messages
45
I hope someone here can help me with my frustration at figuring out what the problem is with my 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude motor. Here's the six points in a nutshell:

1)Two pulls to start and idles smoothly.
2)Once warm, performing low to full throttle (in drive gear) is instant.
3)High throttle will hold for about 20 seconds then motor will suddenly shut back to very low, as if to cut off for approximately 2 seconds.
4)While not touching throttle, motor will again return to full speed and hold for about 5-10 seconds. Then motor will suddenly shut back to very low, as if to cut off for approximately 2 seconds.
5)Then it will repeat problem over and over. Weird thing is you can run the motor at half speed (medium throttle forever and no problem. Its only when you increase to full throttle that problem happens).
6)Once motor is shut off for 10 to 15 minutes, it can require considerable amount of pulls to restart and hold idle.

So here's the story: I take it to two different marine mechanics to resolve the problem. After checking coil and points for spark, it is determined they're in excellent condition (the spark and plenty of it, even at high speed).

Both suspected the carburetor lower jet being plugged because when the demand for more fuel is not received, that's generally the case. So the first mechanic did a quick cleaning of the lower jet. This did not resolve the problem back out on the lake.

The next mechanic did a full cleaning (pulled the whole thing apart), said it was in good condition; float and all looked new. There was two tiny metal shavings found in the bowl. After cleaned and reassembled and ran at the marine service center, it seemed like it was running better ? so back out to the lake and of course the problem still occurred.

So back to the marine dealership. Then they suspected the hoses, that there might be a tiny, pinhole air leak in them. So the hoses were replaced. Back to the lake. Problem still exists.

So then it was surmised that maybe it was the external hose and primer bulb or tank. So we switched out the gas-line hose and changed fuel tanks. This also did not resolve the issue.

We then checked the screen on the fuel pump and it was clean.

Now, one weird thing I discovered and it could be big: if I held the choke out half-way, the motor would run at full throttle without hiccup.

It's frustrating to both myself and the mechanics because everything else is in good order. It's in excellent condition and very well-maintained. And we now know for sure that the carburetor is squeaky clean. Would anybody have any idea what could cause this problem?:confused:

Thanks sincerely,

Doug
 

Rick.

Captain
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
3,740
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

You'll hate me if I tell you your carb. needs cleaning but it does sound like it does. Anyway, I'm not going to say it. It could also be your float setting. Not letting enough gas in to run full out. it seems to me on the original carbs. the float needle just sits in place and is not clipped to the float. The new kits have a clip included to clip the needle to the float which is a more certain way of knowing it will behave correctly. Perhaps you should have a look at yours and buy a new kit if you don't have the clip. The other thing that comes to mind is have you checked for spark when it is running poorly at fast throttle. Perhaps you have an intermittent spark issue. You say the carb. is clean so check the float setting and while you have the carb. apart, ask them to remove the lower ( high Speed) jet and clean it and blow the passage real good with compressed air. Have you tried pumping your bulb to see if the motor speed picks back up? Best of luck. Let us know. Rick.
 

cajuncook1

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
559
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

Welcome Doug,

Couple of simple things to try.

1. Make sure your vent cap on your tank is open. It sounds like a fuel delivery problem, because when you pull the choke out half way more fuel is pull in and the motor runs better.

2. Your fuel pump could be bad even though you check the screen to make sure it is not clogged. The diaphragms in the pump may old/damage and who knows with the damage ethanol in fuel has caused.
- While running the motor and it starts to die or decrease in speed while maintaining the same throttle speed, try pumping the bulb on the fuel line. If revs back up and maintains, then you have a bad fuel pump.

3. Try running your motor with the cover/cowl off. If you don't experience the problems you stated above, then you have a exhaust leak problems and it is choking/starving your motor for air when your cover/cowl is on. Exhaust leak problems where very common for this specific motor.

Three common are of exhaust leakage were: (look at the diagram)

1. Exhaust housing seal
2. Exhaust hose
3. Boot shift rod

There are guys on this forum that are experts with your model of motor and hopefully they will chime in to help you out. I though I would offer a penny's worth that would be simple.

Good luck my friend,

cajuncook1
 

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backyard mechanic

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
203
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

Cajun is right on... check the vent on your tank. It's also possible that your pickup tube is defective or there is an air leak inside the tank. That you tried a different hose and had the same problem tells me there is a problem somewhere inside the tank or cowling. Try a different tank to eliminate that possibility.

Your problem is classic for fuel starvation... You might get a FP repair kit and put one in but fuel is where I'd be searching. Leave the spark stuff alone. Have you checked your compression? Yeah, it runs but there's an air leak or something causing your low fuel problem. Could be related to compression if reeds are damaged. That's my 2 cents.
 

Brianjason6

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
116
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

My 62 18hp did that to me tuesday. I had a spare fuel pump so I changed it. Problem solved...untill I sheared a pin...
 

Lion hunter

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Messages
1,529
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

^^^^^^^^^^^+1 for running it without the cowl. Everytime I have seen sucking air as a problem the carb will spit fuel out as the air bubble enters. You would be able to see this if the cowl is off. I will dig up the post where I had the same issue on my 9.5 and it was an air leak. Otherwise I'd clean the carb again.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=324841
 

bigdoug

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Dec 15, 2009
Messages
45
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

Thank you all so much for the suggestions. And so thorough instructions.

As regards the spark. The red lights stayed lit (blinking rapidly) even at high speed.

The problem is always addressed in a big metal water tank with the outboard motor cover off and problem does not manifest itself as greatly as it does under load on water. So what you are saying makes sense.

I am going to try some of the things you suggested that I can do on my end before bringing it back to the MC's.

I will make a list here of what was tried after posts to this point:

1) Switching of primer bulb hose from tank to motor, no change. (by the way, this may sound silly, but I did have the hose in the opposite direction for a full day. I don't know why I did not discover the bulb being close to the motor until the motor started acting weird. Switched hose around and made it back to shore).
2) Switching tanks after opening airlock on both (2 full turns)- no change. Even left off cap- no change.

Future experiments; I will try to pump bulb while motor is gassed at full throttle. Then I will try removing cover at full throttle.

I will let you know.:)


Doug
 

ezeke

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 19, 2003
Messages
12,532
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

What is indicated by the half choke is that you are running lean without it, or that either there is too much air or too little fuel, depending on the cause.

Some models have a small oil return line attached to the manifold which, if neglected, will allow air to be pulled into the mix.

Because the old parts catalogs do not show them, the spring clips that connect the float arm to the float needle are often left off, a big mistake because if the needle sticks at all the float won't be able to pull it open.

The gasket between the fuel pump and the engine is often neglected which causes two problems: inadequate pulse to drive the fuel pump properly and air leak into the fuel system.

It would be worth the time to remove the high speed orifice and check that it is the correct one.
 

F_R

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
28,226
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

You say that choking it helps. That is the only thing in this whole saga that makes me think it is a fuel problem. If it were not for that, I would suspect it is dropping a cylinder. Don't laugh, but have you tried new spark plugs?
 

floatingwoody2006

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
500
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

well.. This will be the least helpfull response you get here, but in my personal opinion, these 9.5's were the most tempermental outboards J/E ever designed. I have had 2 with the same symptoms you are seeing, and even though i could occasionally get them running good enough to attempt the lake run, they would always let me down. I have also heard some say they were the best little trollers, but in my experience, after completely re-building both, and having the mech's check em out, i sold them. Absolutely try running without the cowling on it to eliminate the possibility of sucking exhaust. try a fan if in a barrel. If i remember correctly, on that model, there is nothing to stop the motor from vibrating while running causing further issues. They did make an aftermarket "rubber shock" kit, but it's tough fo find, and expensive. Good luck, and i hope you have better luck with it than i did.
 

bigdoug

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Dec 15, 2009
Messages
45
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

I just got back from the lake. I just want to thank all of you for your input so far.

It looks like CajunCook has a winner! He suggested:
While running the motor and it starts to die or decrease in speed while maintaining the same throttle speed, try pumping the bulb on the fuel line. If revs back up and maintains, then you have a bad fuel pump.

Well, after trying to run the motor with the lid off, motor still stalled at high speed.

Then I tried what Cajun said, and I would pump the bulb on the external tank hose and the motor never even hiccuped! It ran like a champ! When I would quit pumping the bulb about 10 seconds later the motor would begin to starve for fuel and slow to slow putter, and then kick up and slow down.

I would check the bulb and it was soft and depressed and was not hard. So I again would start pumping the bulb and the speed would come right back.

As long as I keep the bulb hard from hand pumping it will run smooth. However, it did not have that real high pitch I am used to hearing. It would be just a few octaves lower on the high end, almost like a car on cruse, instead of open peddle pushing at the race track.

So what is the final thought? Do I need a new pump? Or could it still be something else?


Doug
 

bigdoug

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Dec 15, 2009
Messages
45
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

Oh by the way,

1) Yes we put on new spark plugs.
2) Yes we verified clip for needle on float. Carb looks brand new.



Doug
 

bigdoug

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Dec 15, 2009
Messages
45
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

Thanks Cajun for the link. However, I am a little slow on parts.

Below is a pic of the part and is numbered on back #304058

Would that be covered under all 9.5 FP's?



Doug
 

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ezeke

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 19, 2003
Messages
12,532
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

The original pump on your 1965 9.5 motor was # 380034 which was superseded by 394789, 395090, 397275 and 397845, all of which are no longer available unless you find one from old stock which would be very old. The current superseding part is 388685. #438562 will also work.

In 1968, OMC began using the small square pump on the remaining 9.5s, #382224, which has now superseded to part number 388833. This will also work for you. #397839 will also work

Iboats' equivalent aftermarket larger pump is 18-7351.
Iboats' equivalent aftermarket small square pump is 18-7350.
Either will work/fit your motor.
 

bigdoug

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Dec 15, 2009
Messages
45
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

Thank you so much Ezeke! That is what I needed to know. Would you say the iboats FP would be an easy install? Can a handyman kind of guy do it, or would I need to get a pro.

I have both original service manuals for the motor by the way,



Doug
 

ezeke

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 19, 2003
Messages
12,532
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

The only thing that will be a problem will be the hoses. You will probably have to move them around a bit. I would get new clamps from your parts dealer. Make sure that the gasket between the pump and the motor is airtight, and save the original screws.
 

bigdoug

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Dec 15, 2009
Messages
45
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

well.. This will be the least helpfull response you get here, but in my personal opinion, these 9.5's were the most tempermental outboards J/E ever designed. I have had 2 with the same symptoms you are seeing, and even though i could occasionally get them running good enough to attempt the lake run, they would always let me down. I have also heard some say they were the best little trollers, but in my experience, after completely re-building both, and having the mech's check em out, i sold them. Absolutely try running without the cowling on it to eliminate the possibility of sucking exhaust. try a fan if in a barrel. If i remember correctly, on that model, there is nothing to stop the motor from vibrating while running causing further issues. They did make an aftermarket "rubber shock" kit, but it's tough fo find, and expensive. Good luck, and i hope you have better luck with it than i did.

I know what you mean...lol

Most tell me they are great little engines, but......when yours doesn't run during prime fishing season :eek:

Anyway, while I was in the shop for my 9.5 they were working on a brand new Evinrude that left the owner stranded on the lake with only 5 hours on the motor...:) Now that would have me...emm.ahhh flippin' crazy.:D

@ezeke: I will order the Iboats fuel pump and replace all hoses again with new clamps.


I will all know if it solves the problem or not.


Doug
 

bigdoug

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Dec 15, 2009
Messages
45
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

Back to the drawing board.

We replaced all the hoses along with the new fuel pump from iboats and the problem remains. We looked at the carb again and it is very clean, and in good order. Motor idles great and trolls great. Yet when you hit the throttle it will quit within 5 seconds. We left the motor cover off to see if it was exhaust and motor still would fail.

If you pump the bulb on the external hose it will maintain high speed but not high rpm.

If the carb is good, and the pump is new, what could be the next guess?

One mechanic suspects the reeds? If it is the reeds, how would I know, and would that be labor intensive to change?

Doug
 

Rick.

Captain
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
3,740
Re: 1965 9.5 HP Evinrude problem

You'll hate me if I tell you your carb. needs cleaning but it does sound like it does. Anyway, I'm not going to say it. It could also be your float setting. Not letting enough gas in to run full out. it seems to me on the original carbs. the float needle just sits in place and is not clipped to the float. The new kits have a clip included to clip the needle to the float which is a more certain way of knowing it will behave correctly. Perhaps you should have a look at yours and buy a new kit if you don't have the clip. The other thing that comes to mind is have you checked for spark when it is running poorly at fast throttle. Perhaps you have an intermittent spark issue. You say the carb. is clean so check the float setting and while you have the carb. apart, ask them to remove the lower ( high Speed) jet and clean it and blow the passage real good with compressed air. Have you tried pumping your bulb to see if the motor speed picks back up? Best of luck. Let us know. Rick.

So what about the high speed jet, was it ever removed? Did you ever order a new carb. kit? What about checking spark while she's running poorly. I doubt your reeds are the problem. They don't know the difference between low speed and high speed. They either function or they don't. Rick.
 
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