1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

kwizz

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Aug 11, 2010
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Whilst on a run today my engine started to hiccup then started to jump or kick quite hard, the more throttle I gave the more and harder it kicked. The engine didnt cut out but had to very slowly make it back to launch. Been trying to figure out where to start first but can't work out where the problem is coming from, I've been thinking it's an electrical problem but is it possible that the engines jumping in and out of gear with it being electric shift. To be honest I havn't got a clue.

Anyone with any suggestions or had similar experience?
 

i386

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Aug 24, 2004
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3,548
Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

Sounds like your problem may be similar to mine. That kicking can be the result of an intermittent spark condition. Sounds like you made it back to the ramp with one cylinder not working.

I would suggest testing for spark on each cylinder.
 

kwizz

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

The jerking seemed quite violent, but weirdly never cut out tho. So if its the spark that could be doing this would this be the coils or further back like power pack or points. Did you manage to fix your problem and how?

Mind you I do have three coil packs with cracks in them, I've tested them and they seem ok and not found any arcing? Can the packs heat up and maybe open the cracks up and cause them to jump? wild guess.

Also the engine only does this when in gear in and forward to be honest, the engine ticks over fine in the water when idling, and seems ok when reversing then I select forward and will be ok for only a very short while before it starts playing up.
 

kwizz

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

After a suggestion from Boobie in another thread I had about an alarm fault in the control box, I think i've found the problem with the engine jumping around yesterday. In the bottom of the control box there was some water (prob's from the rain we had) lying around the electric gear shift switch, and water has travelled along the wires and into the rubber cover where the connectors attach to the switch, on inspection it looks like the lower two terminals nearest where the waters leaked in have been shorting and jumping out of gear. I'll be able to dry it out and seal it all up. Only worry is if the jerking has caused any damage to the gearing.

Happy days.
 

Joe Reeves

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

(Jumping Out Of Gear - Manual Type)
(J. Reeves)

This pertains to lower units on all OMC manual shift outboard engines, or any OMC engine with lower units defined as a Shift Assist or a Hydro Electric Shift unit which incorporates a "Shifter Clutch Dog".

Within the lower unit, splined to the prop shaft is what is most often referred to as a clutch dog, hereafter simply called dog. The dog has at least two lobes protruding from it on both ends, facing both forward and reverse gear. The forward and reverse gears also have lobes built into them near their center area. When the engine is running, in neutral, the gears are spinning constantly via the driveshaft being connected directly to the powerhead crankshaft, but the propeller does not turn due to the fact that the dog is centered between the two gears, and the dog lobes are not touching either of the gear lobes.

When the unit is put into either gear, shift linkages force the dog (and its lobes of course) to engage the lobes of the gear. The lobes of the spinning gear grab the lobes of the dog, and since the dog is splined to the prop shaft, the propeller turns.

The lobes of the dog and gears are precisely machined, most with right angled edges that could be installed in either direction, and some with angles slightly varied that must be installed in one direction only (one end only must face the propeller). Dogs that can be installed in one direction only, if reversed, even if the dog and both gears were new.... would jump out of gear almost immediately. Keep in mind that the lobes are precisely machined with sharp angles!

Due to improper adjustment or worn shift linkages, but usually due to improper slow shifting, those precisely machined sharp edges of the lobes become slightly rounded. Now, with those lobes rounded, as the rpms increase, the pressure of the gear lobes upon the dog lobes increases to a point whereas they are forced apart (jumping out of gear), and due (usually) to the shift cable keeping tension on the engines shift linkages..... the unit is forced back into gear giving one the sensation that the engine has hit something, and the cycle continues.

Some boaters with manual shift engines have the mistaken belief that shifting slowly is taking it easy on all of the shifting components..... Wrong! Shifting slowly allows those precisely machined sharp edges of the dog and gears to click, clank, bang, slam against each other many times before they are finally forced into alignment with each other..... and this is what rounds those edges off! The proper way to shift is to snap the unit into gear as quickly as possible.
 

kwizz

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

Thankyou for that indepth description Joe. I totally agree that the boat did have a sensation of hitting something, quite freaky actually. The only difference with whats above is that this kicking was at every level of speed, we had to crawl the boat back at the slowest speed possible (FYI the boat is a tiny 14' fiberglass speedboat) with it still kicking like hell, had no choice to limp back as there was no-where moor up.
With what you write i'm for sure that the kicking was the engine jumping out gear, but i'm still favoured to the water in the rubber cover on the underside of the selectric gear switch which is in contact with the switch terminals being the culprit to my nightmare journey......but I could be wrong!
The info you give is something I didn't know, but it makes perfect sense.

Thanks.
 

Joe Reeves

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

The default shift location for that engine is forward gear..... this means that there is absolutely no voltage being applied to the shift system. If your problem is electrical, it would need to be a problem whereas voltage is somehow being applied intermitently to the neutral (green) wire of the shifting system. See below.

(Hydro Electric Shift System Explained)
(J. Reeves)

The shifting setup of the lower unit is what's called a "Hydro Electric Shift", which is quite complex consisting of voltage being applied to solenoids in the lower unit which in turn change oil passages via a oil pump that supplies various pressure on a spring loaded shifter dog. The wires leading to the lower unit (at the powerhead) are "Green" and "Blue". The engine must be running or cranking over in order to shift out of forward gear.

You CAN NOT use HI VIS lube in that lower unit. You MUST USE what OMC calls "Premium Blend" lube, commonly called "Type C". (A thinner lube)

Note: The engine must be running OR have the driveshaft turning by some other means in order for the engine to shift.

In neutral, you need 12v to the "Green" wire.
In reverse, you need 12v to both wires, the "Green" one and the "Blue" one.
In forward, there should be no voltage to either wire. (The spring loaded shifter dog forces the unit into forward gear)

To check the lower unit for proper shifting to make sure you have no trouble there, remove the spark plugs to avoid problems and to allow a higher cranking speed.

This next step eliminates the actual shift switch in case problems may exist there.... Disconnect the blue & green wires at the knife connectors (the rubber insulated boots) leading to the lower unit at the powerhead, then using jumpers, take voltage direct from the starter solenoid to apply voltage to the "Green" wire for neutral, then both wires 'Green" & "Blue" for reverse (Remember the engine must be cranking over in order to shift).
With no voltage applied, the unit should be in forward. No need for a ground jumper... the lower unit's already grounded. You may crank the engine with the key switch or by energizing the starter solenoid with a jumper wire.
 

jetskier16

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Sep 26, 2010
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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

I have the Seloc repair manuel for this year if you need any diagrams or what not.
 

kwizz

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

Thank you so much for the help guys, i'll not be able to get to have a look for a couple of days but i'll keep you posted with anything I find.

Thanks Paul.
 

kwizz

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

Rewired control box, heat shrinked wires and siliconed up switch. All intrinsically safe and fixed grounding of alarm housing simply with silcone.
Took boat out on saturday for test run.....problem still there....launched from ramp and reversed back engine seems ok, then forward selected and only slight throttle given then intermittent jumping of engine started again so turned straight around and back to ramp.

I still can't see it being a gear issue with such little throttle. Is this an ignition problem? if it is, is it under the flywheel like the points etc.?

I can't afford to just replace everything, any ideas to narrow this down to a specific location?

Technically retarded so make it simple please.

Thx guys paul.
 

jay_merrill

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

Its beginning to sound like a bad clutch dog.



???
 

Tim Frank

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

Rewired control box, heat shrinked wires and siliconed up switch. All intrinsically safe and fixed grounding of alarm housing simply with silcone.
Took boat out on saturday for test run.....problem still there....launched from ramp and reversed back engine seems ok, then forward selected and only slight throttle given then intermittent jumping of engine started again so turned straight around and back to ramp.

I still can't see it being a gear issue with such little throttle. Is this an ignition problem? if it is, is it under the flywheel like the points etc.?

I can't afford to just replace everything, any ideas to narrow this down to a specific location?

Technically retarded so make it simple please.

Thx guys paul.

If you have a tach, at what RPM does the kicking start?
The ignition system will not care what gear you are in...if it starts to kick in Fwd at say, 2000 RPM, if it does not kick in Rev at the same RPM I would start looking at the L/U.
 

Joe Reeves

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

This kicking...... Does it feel like you're actually hitting a underwater object, the engine jumps slightly, the transom seems to take a hit of sorts?
 

kwizz

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

Yes Joe it does, it's as if the prop has hit something and kicks back over sharply at whatever speed, the more throttle the harder it kicks even at min throttle.
It doesn't seem to make sense why the dog clutch would just instantly fail, I've no knowledge or experience in boats and engines as this is my first, but I would have thought with something like the gearing it would be a progressive deterioration depending on the user and how he treats the engine, and the part in question.
The kicking hadn't happened at any point before, it's not as if the kicking happened here and there at a higher speed then built up to kicking even at min throttle with as little pressure as possible. When the kicking started the pattern of the kicks started instantly and matless of whatever speed the same sort of intermittent pattern (if thats makes sense :confused:) only change was the severity of the kick at more throttle.

Now I'm going at ask a question just for elimination of possibilities....

A little while back not long after getting the boat I dropped the L/U to check the integrity of the water pump before first launch. Had a bit trouble lowering the leg, as mentioned in a previous thread before committing to any force I checked up the leg and noticed frayed wires. With this in mind I knew they where already damaged from someone else. Finally I got the jammed grommet bit from the top and L/U dropped.
These wires had to be replaced so a friend of my dad who is a professional electrician replaced the wires to so far down, Very high temp heavy sleeving used to protect wires and heat shrunk ends.

Now back to the question, What would happen if water was to get into those wires? I do know that for neutral a single current is sent down green and for reverse a current down green and blue, forward there is no current. Could there be a type of short making it jump into neutral.
I don't think this is the problem as it wouldn't answer the intermittent pattern, but just mentioning it as you's guys would know if to definitely rule it out.

Don't think i've wrote so much since school.
 

Joe Reeves

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

The jumping out of gear, then back into gear doesn't happen all of a sudden. It's a general wearing of the shifter dog and gear lobes that takes place while the unit still functions normally, but the lobes eventually wear (rounding the edges off) to a point where the jumping out of gear problem enters the picture.

I know it's hard sometimes to see the forest for all of the trees in front of it but take my word for it..... that unit is jumping out of gear. The afirmative answers you gave to my questions confirms that.

The electrical question (shifting)...... normally the lower unit has knife connectors which connects the lower unit wires to the harness, what yours might have after so many years is an unknown to me, however disconnect those wires so that no voltage is available to the shift solenoids, then give the engine a test run.

Still jumping out of gear? If so, it's not a electrical problem and that lower unit will require dismantling and repairing.

I don't recall if you stated what gearlube you're using..... but that gearcase demands "Premium Blend", also known as "Type C". If you were using HiVis which is used for the mechanical shift units, that would give you a problem.
 

boobie

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

Dang you Joe, I was just about to suggest what you said about cutting off the current to the g/c and trying it to see what happens. Honest, I was.
 

kwizz

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

I bought the gear lube from Wills Marines (very reputable) when talking to them I stated exactly ' Type C ' premium blend for the hydro electric shift not the quicksilver product which goes by similar name. They said they knew exactly the lube needed and had it in their workshop, they didn't have the lube in pre filled bottles but have a big barrel of official BRP lube which the mechanics use, They transfered the lube into a pre used bottle and couriered it.
I have been told to trust these guys as they are about... if not the UK's best Johnson dealership for the bits I need. I've only found two companies in the whole of England so far which sell ' Type C ', other places can European import it at a silly price.

When you say disconnect the wires (which I can from the upper section just above where wires come out of the leg) and test the engine, I can only do this via muffs I don't have a tank...problem is when I run engine via muffs it doesn't jump anyway.




'Arrrhhh take me to a happy place!!'
 

kwizz

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

BTW thxs loads for help guys. :)
 

James R

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

Just jumping on this to have a record for myself.
Thanks guys.
 

kwizz

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Re: 1972 65hp Engine kicking and jumping.

I'm asking a really lame question here, as it's one of the first and fore most things, tried searching thro threads but how do I do perform a proper spark check, don't have any particlular tools to do this if needed.
Do i just unplug spark with lead on and lay against engine block, or is there something I can make to set a specific distance?
Sorry guys I know this is totally basic stuff but wanna do it right to eliminate.
 
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