1974 Reinell 175 Floor and Hull Crack Repair

[Driven1]

Hi all. Long time no type! Had another project here but it kinda fizzled out (as many do). As luck would have it, I have another project! Yay me!! It's a 1974 Reinell Closed Bow Ski Boat. Equipped with a Johnson 115 and came with a nice trailer. All for 600 smackers. It has issues though that I knew about up front. Upon getting into it, it has turned out to be a bit more than expected (of course). The boat was filled with water at some point and became so heavy that the front wobble rollers on the trailer cracked the sides of the hull at their contact points. Opening up the area of the floor where the cracks were located revealed that a new floor was in order as well. Nothing new there. I have pics, and of course, questions to go along with them.

First, a shot of the boat...

The exterior of the cracks...

The interior of the cracks...

The areas of the floor that I cut the access holes...

So, ok, here come the questions...

On the exterior where the cracks are, the fiberglass has been pushed in creating a depression around the cracks. Does anyone think I could get away with just building up the depression with glass on the exterior and reinforce on the interior, or should I cut the whole thing out and start from scratch? There's a bit of an issue with cutting the whole thing out because of the way the stringers were done in this boat. There appears to be a foam support for them as seen in the interior shots. I would expect that if I were to cut the cracks out, I would have to replace the foam as well. Not quite sure how I'd do that.

On the floor, it appears that either the floor was designed with a slight slope from each stringer to the outside edge, maybe to help drain off water, or the hull has sagged somehow to create the slope. Does anyone know if the slope was designed that way in these Reinells?

IF it's supposed to be flat, how do I remedy this? Would there be an issue if I didn't remedy it and installed a new floor with the slope?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Whats shakin Drivin.

Sorry..but yea..you have to start from scratch on them holes. Cut out all the bad glass and remove the foam or whatever is in your way around the repairs. Glass both inside and outside. I would do the outside first due to its location at the rollers.

The hull probably didnt sink or sag. So your deck Probably was built like that.

Sorry to be so short..but I gotta run.

 

[Driven1]

Well, might as well hop in my ol' 14' Crestliner and go fishin' 'cause I just opened up a HUGE can of worms...

As it turns out, the stringers are made nearly entirely of foam. Reinell applied for a patent on this stringer system, oddly enough, in 1974. This may be one of the 1st boats it was used on.

The Stringers were molded for a boat hull using polyurethane foam in a separate mold designed to fit the hull it was to be used in. Once the stringer assembly was cured it was attached to the hull with resin underneath, and cloth over the top and tabbed to the upper portion of the hull, the stringer was adjusted into place before the resins started to cure. The floor was resined down once the stringers were in place and then fiberglassed over and the edges sealed. Interesting huh?

Not so interesting to me though! Trying to figure out how I'm going to get around this mess.

The foam is cracked and it looks like it may have been over-stressed. It could also be that the foam was soaked, froze, and cracked that way. The floor is TOTALLY rotted so I'm thinking it was froze.

Anyway, I'm not really sure if there's a way to fix this. Anyone out there had any experience with something like this?

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Molded stringer system..sure. Normally they build the stringers..tab it in..then pour the foam. Ive seen a few that just had the deck right over the pour hole. No glass.

Think you could remove the foam..clean it up real good like..then pour it back in? Cut the foam clean on top..then glass over it. Just like wooden stringers but you have foam instead. You would Not use floatation foam. There are higher density foams out there to use.

You would have to check to see if the existing glass tabbing is in good condition before you glass over it.

 

[Driven1]

Thanks Doc.

Yep. Molded foam stringers. From a production standpoint, it made a lot of sense. Fill the mold, pop the stringer system out of the mold in about an hour, place it in the boat, glass it in, pop the floor on, glass it over, done. I'm sure it saved them quite a bit in production labor costs.

From a repair standpoint, it blows!

In thinking about it, I think I have three choices.

Option 1.) Beef up the outer layers of glass around the stringers, remove as much foam as possible where necessary (maybe all of it), glass over the tops of the empty stringer shell, drill 2" pour holes in the tops of the stringers, pour foam, trim off the excess, install the floor.

Option 2.) Tear the whole thing out, make real stringers, and go with all of the fun related to that.

Option 3.) Sell the Motor and trailer and scrap the carcass.(not easy to do around here.)

I'm seriously thinking about option 1. I really like the way the boat looks and think it would be a great boat when finished. The cracks in the hull aren't that big of a deal, and neither is the floor. The stringers though. They're a biggie. I'm thinking option 1 would be the least time consuming and cost effective way to go if I can get it done right. If it looks like that's a no go, probably option 2.

Obviously, I've got some more inspection to perform before I make my final decision on which way to go with it. I'll be working on getting the rest of the floor torn out over the next few days.Once I have that out, I'll see how hard it is to get the bad foam out.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Good deal. You could also pour the foam..shape it to where it needs to be..then glass over. Plan one is still the best bet IMO.

I think its 10 lb foam or something..that if you hit it with a hammer it would hardly make a dent. Dense stuff !

 

[Driven1]

Well folks, I made the mistake of doing some exploratory surgery today. The patient is in rough shape and barely staying alive on life support...

I cut out a section of one of the foam stringers today...

Of course, it's totally soaked. ALL of it, from the bottom to near the top. This explains why the boat feels so heavy! You can easily squeeze quite a bit of water out of one small piece with your fingers.

Which leads me to..

The foam doesn't seem to be much more than a 2 or 4 lb. foam. I expected it would be a lot more dense than that. It also appears that possibly their method of pouring the molds for these wasn't that great either. There are visible voids where there should be foam. Also the roving they used is pretty thin in the areas it's used. the foam in the center of the boat goes all the way down to the hull.

So, here's what I'm thinking now. Based on the original design they were depending on the foam for beefing up the hull, flotation, and floor support.There is NO wood in this at all. What I'm going to do is tear out all of it, make a couple of cheesy stringers solely for initial floor support and lightly tab them in, put a new floor on, drill holes in the floor, and pour new foam into the whole thing. Seems like the easiest solution at this time.

Beefing up the outer glass shell of the current stringers so I could pour just the original stringers seems a moot point.

Good idea? Bad idea?

Thanks.

 

[dOb]

I'm no expert, but here's my 2 cents:
When you say "make a couple of cheesy stringers solely for initial floor support and lightly tab them in" I take your talking about building wood stringers. I think that'll work fine, but I wouldn't go too light or cheesy with them. That's your backbone. and you want to be sure that they are sealed well so the wood doesn't get wet and rot below deck.

I'm going to follow along on this one. I have a soft spot for 1974 Reinells.

Good luck with it.

 

[Woodonglass]

A molded foam stringer can be, if done right, a very strong and effective stringer system. If I were doing this, I'd be tempted to try and refabricate the stringers as close to the factory design as possible and just do a better glassing job. As dOb stated the stringer system IS the backbone of your hull and should not be taken lightly. It is much much more than just the support for your deck. The foam is mainly to keep the boat afloat in case of a catastrophic event so it won't sink to the bottom and possibly give you and your passengers something to hold onto until help arrives.

 

[Driven1]

Thanks guys, but I think you're missing my point here. What I mean by "cheesy stringers" is simply initial support for the new floor. There is absolutely NO structural support, or "backbone" of any kind other than the foam in the original design. One suggestion was to try to duplicate the original foam stringers. In a way, this is what I mean to do. It would be impossible for me to duplicate the process they used originally, So, I'm kind of doing what they did, just in a different way. I'm using the hull as a mold instead of a mold for a mold.

The stringers and everything down the center between them is foam to the bottom of the hull except for a VERY thin glass "compartment" lining between the inside of the molded stringers and the portions that were poured after the installation of the molded stringers.

So, what I'm planning on, which seems like it would be fine and still mostly follows the original design, would be to make wooden stringers just for initial support of the floor (not to provide any sort of structural backbone, because the boat was originally designed using the foam for that). Install a new floor. Drill 2" plugs out of the floor in strategic areas, and then pour foam to fill all the way from the bottom of the hull to the floor. Once that's done, put on the finishing touches, glass in the floor, etc.

So this would, in essence, be following the original design. The foam WAS the structural support, stringers and all. I may end up using a tad more foam than they did, but I don't see that as a bad thing. It should provide the same structural support, or better, than the original.

So, anyone see any possible problems going about it this way, especially at the pour?

 

[Driven1]

This pic should give you a better idea of what I'm talking about. Foam. All Foam to the center of the hull.

 

[engine350400]

Did they use wood for the transom? I think you are on to something there, In my seaswirl trihull there are two stringers that go from the transom all the way to the bow. They are about 3 inches wide making the 5 foot span from port to starboard only resting on a total of 6 inches of stringer. If you do something close to that, and use good cdx 3/4 or 5/8 plywood and fill full of foam it will be solid, my deck sure is.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Ok..lemme see if I get this right. Your 'molded stringers' was basically formed 2lb stringer system with a light fiberglass shell aye?

Well in any case..you could do what your planning and create your own stringer system ( floor support system ). Then foam like you said..bam!

Dont see why this wont hunt...go for it.

 

[Driven1]

@ engine350400, I have a tri-hull here too and the construction of that is similar to yours. What I would call a "standard" stringer and transom system. Two wooden stringers running the length of the boat, three bulkheads, wood transom. A project I started, but have yet to finish. It's an old thread but there are some good pointers in it http://forums.iboats.com/forum/boat...6-mfg-gypsy-15-tri-hull-restore-advice-needed

I may yet get back to it.

@ Yacht Dr., Yeah, that's the gist of it. Apparently, Reinell made the stinger/bulkhead system in a mold, popped it out of the mold, and then put it in the boat it was designed for, lightly glassed it over and installed the floor. There is proof in the floor in the way of pour holes that they added some foam after the floor was in.

The part that's bothering me, is that why would they go about it that way as a "patented" construction method to facilitate faster, more cost effective build process. Seems to me, that what I'm about to do would have been even more cost effective and faster from a build standpoint.

Am I missing something? Like, maybe the pour would create too much heat in the hull? It is a pretty good depth from the top of the stringers to the bottom of the hull.

 

[Woodonglass]

What I think you're missing is...how much actual strength that so called "Lightly Glassed Foam Cored Stringer System" adds to the hull!!!! The engineers that design the hulls for the mfgs don't get to be engineers by flunking out of school. The guys out in the shop may not always do the best job of following through on the installation but the design usually is sound and has a lot of reasoning behind it. I've found it's usually not a good thing to mess with what they thought was best for the hull. But again, I AM just an Old Dumb Okie and it IS your boat and you ARE free to do with it as you feel best. Filling the entire hull with foam will almost certainly make sure that it will be strong enough for any circumstance.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

The part that's bothering me, is that why would they go about it that way as a "patented" construction method to facilitate faster, more cost effective build process. Seems to me, that what I'm about to do would have been even more cost effective and faster from a build standpoint.

Am I missing something? Like, maybe the pour would create too much heat in the hull? It is a pretty good depth from the top of the stringers to the bottom of the hull.

Two reasons that I can think of Driven.

1. Marketing as far as being 'patented'.
2. Production

Its a sound idea and a proven system in other boats. Normally (from what ive seen) is that 'finished' molded stringer systems are partly exposed. So that clean look is a sell factor. Also..you have to understand..that when you build it with traditional wood, they have to frame it out and glass tab it. As where with a 'system', those (pre-made0 suckers just get slapped in there with a little adjusting with positioning. Super fast production and way less man hours from that stand point.

You/They would not pour such large cavities all in one go. Too much to go wrong doing it that way. Several pours over a few hours would be typical.

Woodonglass
Yea..I understand what your saying there mate. However, I have known a few 'designers' to know that its not always the case of them knowing what their doing lol. Most the times yes..but sometimes you get 'that guy' that walks into a plant and talks a good talk

There have been more times than not when I break into a boat ( for whatever reason ) and tell myself "What the hell is This!?..who concocted this crazy idea!?".

Now dealing with DIY resto boats..think of it like "The 6 Million Dollar Man". If you can make it faster..stronger..better, then go for it.
IMHO..Just lay out a sound stringer sytem ( with bulkies )..Deck it..then foam it. Check the tire pressure on the trailer and hook it up.

 

[Driven1]

Based on our discussion, I've decided to go with the plan of making a couple of "floor supports" and foaming under the entire deck using 4# closed cell foam. The original foam was 2# open cell foam. Stuff sucks up water like a sponge! The original floor was flat. Expansion of the old foam due to water, freezing, and cracking gave the floor the sagging look at the outer edges. I'm also going to try to come up with a drainage system. After pouring in the foam and glassing down the floor, I wouldn't expect any water intrusion, but in my experience, that's what designers thought too. Better safe than sorry. Now I just have to figure out how much foam, I'm going to have to buy. Anyone have an easy way to figure that out?

 

[Woodonglass]

Any foam that's left immersed in water for any extended period of time will eventually become waterlogged. 2lb or 4lb density. Doesn't matter. They are water resistant NOT waterproof. It's all about Care and Maintenance. Your boat suffered from neglect and misuse. NOT poor design. You can use the 2lb foam and achieve excellent and long lasting results if you maintain and care for your boat in the proper way. The stringer system utilized in your boat is in fact a superior system and is utilized in some of the more expensive off shore power boats and has proven to be a strong and very effective design. It may not have been installed very well but the design IS sound. As I stated before, filling the entire hull with foam will certainly ensure that the hull is strong and supported at all points and you'll have adequate flotation in case of any catastrophic event. The pour in foam expands dependent upon temperature and humidity. It's calculated based on cubic ft of space. You need to determine the cubic ft of space between the hull and the deck. It's best to do the pour when temps are in the 90's. You'll get optimum expansion then. If you do the calculations correctly and mix the proportions right you should fill the areas just right.