1977 Wellcraft Suncruiser complete restore

[knotperfect]

Long story short, I picked up this Wellcraft Suncruiser 2000 for $200 complete a few weeks ago.

I am working on obtaining a replacement engine, but first I want to repair the soft spot in the floor on the Port quarter. The soft spot is about 1.5 ft square, but I will be pulling the area up today to make sure I don't have underlying problems. I have various plywood, ss fasteners, etc already. I have no reason to suspect much else but the soft floor, but stand by.

The current stuff (fiberglass?) is pulling from the floor in the area. What is this deck covering? Poly, Fiberglass, something else? Should I pull the entire covering and re glass/poly the entire deck area regardless of weather or not I replace the underlying wood?
As I approach getting repair materials, I am confused by the myriad of products available. Do I go with Poly Resin with fiber, Epoxy with glass? uscomposites has everything I need, but what do I need? Any help would be appreciated. The forums here are a blessing and a curse, while there is a ton of information I sometimes get lost is the awesome threads and I lose my focus. Help me focus..... Thanks.

 

[jonesg]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

It very likely need transom, stringers and deck.
The last place rot shows up is in the deck.
Get in there and poke around a bit, the good news is its a great looking boat. Well worth doing.

 

[rickryder]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Agreed! Open up some of the deck and do some digging.....wet foam will be the first sign of underlying issues. Take core samples of the foam,transom and stringers to see what your dealing with. Post lots of pictures.

Welcome to the best boating fourm on the net!

 

[Bondo]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

I have no reason to suspect much else but the soft floor, but stand by.

Ayuh,... A $200., 35 year old boat,... Ya, Right....

I'm with Jonesg,... Dig out the Rot, 'n build it back up,...
I'd suspect All the wood to be Rotten...

 

[knotperfect]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

OK, Lunch time tear-down. I pulled where the fiberglass was separated then back a little further. I took core samples of the foam and all but the furthest back was dry inside. You can tell where some repairs were made in the past by seeing pooled resin of some sort. I cut the deck forward until the wood was totally dry and clean.



The stringers are another story. The drill bit went through the glass and then sunk. Although the glassed portion was rock hard, they were empty.



I then bored into the motor mount and the wood was solid as could be. I suspect that the motor mount/bilge area was re-done in the recent past based on the different texture of the glass and paint. Also, the stringers were not fully glassed into the bilge box.



Finally, the transom looks solid and looks also to having been re-done. About every 5 inches there are pilot holes that are filled in with epoxy. Also, is the metal plate normal? I don't recall seeing them in other posts.



I am going to cut away the deck al least another 6 inches forward after I remove the seats. The Starboard side seems very solid so I am hesitant to start demolishing there. Any recommendations?

Where do I go from here? Again, I am not sure between epoxy or poly. Any tips?

 

[jonesg]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

I'd say the transom is shot to rot, you have to prove otherwise when they're that old.
And thats not the place to drill, get down low close to the keel and around the outdrive lower section.
Metal plates usually spell stopgap measures for rotted transoms.

 

[Bondo]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Also, is the metal plate normal?

Nope,... Not normal...

Usually a poor Bandaid to hide the Rotten wood....

 

[SDSeville]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

...but first I want to repair the soft spot in the floor on the Port quarter...no reason to suspect much else...

Famous last words... That is exactly what I said when I got my boat home.

Anyway, welcome to iboats! These guys are great and will help you make that thing better than new.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Just keep carfully exporing Everything untill you know the extent of damages.

" It looks " , " I think " or " Its seems " are Not terms we understand . Its more like " I looked and this is what I have for Sure " .. we go from there ...

YD.

 

[knotperfect]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Just keep carfully exporing Everything untill you know the extent of damages.

" It looks " , " I think " or " Its seems " are Not terms we understand . Its more like " I looked and this is what I have for Sure " .. we go from there ...

YD.

I for sure ripped up the floor up to the 3rd stringer and it is solid, dry and in tact. All is also dry from the center to the stbd side. I will pull the engine and expose the transom on Saturday. I "for sure" have a chore ahead of me. But the family is learning and enjoying the project. Thanks for the insight, I will know more when I get the transom plate off.

 

[knotperfect]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

OK, Now the engine is out and I have full access to the transom. All tests are good! The transom was replaced some time in the past and it looks like a pretty good job so I am not going to dig into it. I am just going to clean and paint the bilge and track down the new engine. My tests of the foam under the port side floor show water in the foam about 2 inches deep but only in the 2 most aft sections. So I will pull up the foam aft of the 3rd stringer and replace 2 stringers and the foam inside before I re-deck.

Now the question.... Since I am removing decking, would it be worth while to pull up the deck above the fuel tank to inspect hoses, tank integrity, etc? This is a 48 gallon aluminum tank that has been buried in foam for close to 35 years. From the access covers, it looks good but that means nothing.. Do these tanks ever have issues? What about the fill/vent hoses? Should those be replaced since I am already tearing up the floor. How can I inspect the tank and hoses without totally exposing it? I know you don't fix what ain't broken, but I have no idea what the history is of the tank, hoses, etc. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Now the question.... Since I am removing decking, would it be worth while to pull up the deck above the fuel tank to inspect hoses, tank integrity, etc? This is a 48 gallon aluminum tank that has been buried in foam for close to 35 years. From the access covers, it looks good but that means nothing.. Do these tanks ever have issues? What about the fill/vent hoses? Should those be replaced since I am already tearing up the floor. How can I inspect the tank and hoses without totally exposing it? I know you don't fix what ain't broken, but I have no idea what the history is of the tank, hoses, etc. Thanks for the insight.

I think you answered your own question..

I dont think anyone here would say " na..its all cool under there..leave it " ..

INSPECT as much as you can while you can..

YD.

 

[rickryder]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

My aluminum fuel tank looked pretty good when I pulled it out....some minor oxidation but after cleaning it up man sure is a lot of pit on it....plus the fuel line was dry rotted.....do yourself a favor while the deck is out and go over everything! It would be a shame to have to rip up your new deck next year for a fuel leak.:facepalm:

 

[knotperfect]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

One thing leads to another. As I worked my way forward on the port side, I began to smell heavy fuel vapors. I pulled the next section of foam and it was saturated with fuel stinking stuff. So, I continued to the fuel tank, pulled it out. Still had about 15 gallons of fuel inside. Underneath the tank in the bilge was about a gallon of old fuel remnants. I say remnants since the stuff would not ignite but still reaked of gas. No, I didn't try to light it in the boat on the off chance that I would end my misery. Still, it was disturbing how much of this liquid was present. So the foam under the tank was removed. I probably ended up with about 50 pounds of fuel smelling foam out of the boat. The fuel line to the fuel pump was cracked and rotted and brittle as heck. I surmise that while the pump was operating, a lot of the fuel was simply leaking onto the tank and into the fuel tank bilge. Since there was no drain from there to the bilge, the stuff just festered.

Once I got out the fuel tank, I saw there were small pockets of rot in a few other stringers, so instead of trying to tie in later I just fully gutted the deck support structure. Now that I have everything removed to the bare hull, I will start the sanding, itching, repeat portion of rebuilding. The upside to all this is that I can tell that someone replaced the transome and motor mount bases with some heavy duty 4x6 lumber and covered with cloth, so luckily those are good. I plan to PL the new stringers into the 1/4" high channels that remain from the old structure after I sand the rest down. On a side note the longitudinal string was solid wood and not plywood.

Is there any problem using those old channels or would starting from scratch be better?

Should I replace the longitudinal stringer with wood vs. ply? What would be a good material?

Once I empty the fuel tank, how do I go about cleaning it? The tank is factory original and looks like new. How can I test its integrity?

BTW, I owe hours of my life to iBoat for the flat garden shovel recommendation for foam removal and the sawzall for rapid removal of stringers.

 

[rickryder]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

The 1/4" channels will be fine to keep your stringer layout... I bedded my stringers in peanut butter but some guys like PL... PL takes a while to dry so you will be waiting a few days to tab in and glass your stringers and bulks....

Always a debate on what wood to use... most prefer plywood pref. marine grade,Ext grade ply,lots of options...

I'm guessing that your stringers are over 8' that's why your looking at 1x lumber.....
Here is what I would do....grind off 1 side of the channel the outside toward the gunnels
Bond 1/2'' ply 2 layers overlapping the pieces by about 3-4'....csm and resin between them and clamp let cure..
Cut out your stringers out of those and PB them along the channel you have for a guide...

They will be a little over an inch thick and super strong... round the edges over on the tops with a sander and it will help when you run glass over the top....less air bubbles on the sharp bend...

On to the fuel tank..... I am assuming it's aluminum.... clean the outside with Easy Off oven cleaner and a Scotch Brite pad...Spray it on and let it soak an hour....scrub and rinse with hose....dry with cloth.

Inspect tank for pitting,holes,cracks etc.

You need a pressure gauge and some fittings,clamps,plugs and hoses.
The pressure gauge should have an air valve for a pump....you can get this in a plumbing dept.
Block off all the fill vent and feed hole with pieces of hose and clamps....use one to fit the gauge on....add 4lbs of air and leave for over 24 hours....to be CG approved it must hold 4lbs for 24 hours...

Hope this helps ya out

BTW check my resto thread for draining the fuel tank locker.

 

[knotperfect]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

BTW check my resto thread for draining the fuel tank locker.

Yeah, I have been living vicariously through you and friscoboater. Thanks for the tips.... Pics tomorrow

 

[knotperfect]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Between Rick, Bond-o, and YD, we have a full fledged resto on our hands. I sat my butt in the center of the boat and pivoted clockwise with a sawzall and shovel until "Knot Perfect" was gutted. The exception is the transom, but give me a minute. All foam, stringers are finally on the way to the dump. Last night I removed an outboard motor mount and Bond-0's usual advice is correct. The transom is rotted, but its a dry rot. Seriously, the inside of the transom looks like dried tobacco. The weird thing is that parts of it are hard. After I unbolted the motor mount, some of the through transom bolts were a PITA to push out. I think a PO drilled holes, pumped something (seacast, epoxy, ??) in between the FG layers of the transom and later put on an aluminum plate.

So here is where I am at.

Can I shorten the motor mounts to allow for a battery compartment within the deck forward of the engine? There is about a foot in front of the bilge compartment that I think I can reclaim. The screwdriver in the mount represent the forward bolt hold for the motor mount.

I looked at a few resto posts today and saw some great looking engine compartments but each had motor mounts no more than 8 or 10 inches long. I would like to cut down my 4 ft long monsters if possible.

How do I secure the motor mounts to the deck after I rebuild the transom? I can't recall seeing how this is done but I hope friscoboater gets there soon.

The help, guidance and motivation from iBoat regulars is awesome, thanks a ton. I am attacking this from several angles. I will post more pics as I make more progress.

btw...before I bought "knot Perfect" I had decided to build a boat before I even thought of restoring one. Kind of a learning lesson before I bit off more than I could chew so to speak. So tonight, I show off my first glassing on a kayak I built. Hope you enjoy...

 

[rickryder]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Those timbers look like 6x6's

I haven't run across mounts that big before....do you think they are from the factory?
I would contact them and ask...

As far as setting new mounts they get glassed in to the hull like everything else. My mounts for my 5.7 are only about a foot long 4" wide and are just 4 pieces of 3/4 ply bonded together and glassed in...

Maybe someone else can add some insight why they are so large.....


BTW nice job on the kayak

 

[knotperfect]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

I now have a full-fledged restore on my hands. I removed the motor mounts and started pulling out the transom. The PO had drilled holes at the top of the transom cover and poured in some sort of resin to firm things up a bit. The resin is freaksihly strong. Good thing is that it is only in a few places, so I am almost finished getting it all out. The motor mounts are not factory, but I have no idea if these were replaced to factory size or not. The wood looks pretty new and has no rot whatsoever. Also, it was covered with what looks like a 4oz cloth, poorly I might add. This is where I am at.

Stringers, transom, fuel tank and motor mounts are all removed. I am guessing that by removing all the wet foam and motor mounts, I will shed close to 450+ lbs from the boat after is all said and done. I have removed the trim tabs and I intend to leave them off. Anyone have any opinions about trim tabs on a 20ft cuddy? I wonder if they were installed after all the weight gain from saturated foam.

Now I am at a turning point. As far as I see it, I am not truly committed to this project. Afterall, demolition is free. Now it is time to start spending some money on this cheap boat.

 

[rickryder]

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

Re: 77 wellcraft soft floor

The stuff poured in the transom was probably Seacast or Nida Bond.
No such thing as a cheep boat my friend.....only thing you got going for you is there is no labor charges just materials

I had never done this before but with the help from some great people here I am doing it! It's really not all that hard if your handy.