1979 Mercury 90HP Inline 6 One Cylinder Dead, Needs Rebuild. Please advise.

jimmbo

Supreme Mariner
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
13,642
How did you get the 800#? If from a Website, I guess there is a Possibility that you were at a Phished Site and were given a false 800#
 

Faztbullet

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
15,930
That's their site..guess they went public......I'll check price since I am a dealer and bought from them for years. Got my curiosity aroused:confused:
 

elr

Seaman
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Messages
57
Well that’s good to hear. Guy I ordered from said the pro v and wiseco both were out of stock. These he just called pro marine.

Another question... a friend suggested I consider replacing the reeds just for precaution. Especially if they are standing open at all. His theory was they are 40 years old and I wouldn’t want to have to tear down again to replace. I see that point but I also sometimes wonder about replacement parts being as good as original and just leaving well enough alone.

He said if they’re standing open at all then I wouldn’t be getting best motor performance. I checked and most of them are down tight against. There were maybe half a dozen mostly on top end that I could just push down tighter, barely the thickness of the reeds themselves. Would they not seal themselves as soon as the piston begins its downstroke?
 

racerone

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
38,438
There is a limit as to how far open they can be.----0.007" opening comes to mind.-----Yes they seal immediately when crankcase compression starts.
 

elr

Seaman
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Messages
57
Ready to begin assembly... Checking the ring gap and seems to me it's on the big size... Don't have a feeler gauge but using my calipers at one spot it appears to be about .042". All six cylinders were pretty consistent.

I ordered the piston and ring set from pro marine at .015" over and my machinist had all six pistons before he bored it. What happens if I install as is... just won't have the power it could have and will it hurt something to run it as is ??? I don't have a proper bore measuring device, whatever they're called.
 

Attachments

  • photo320248.jpg
    photo320248.jpg
    966.8 KB · Views: 3
  • photo320249.jpg
    photo320249.jpg
    906.8 KB · Views: 4

Faztbullet

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
15,930
Ring gap new is .018-.024........if its .042 its worn out before its assembled and pistons will be sloppy as heck.
 

elr

Seaman
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Messages
57
Checked it with a feeler guage and is showing about .046. These are new pistons and rings and the shop wanted to have the pistons in hand to bore off of the actual pistons not just go standard .015 oversized book values.

So they just bored too big or what? And now what do I do? Pistons are already installed on crank so can’t exchange for something bigger. Can I get other rings and use on these pistons?
 

jimmbo

Supreme Mariner
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
13,642
You did have the Ring perfectly perpendicular to the bore when you took the measurement? Also at what locations was the ring when you measured the gap?
Is the gap that big in all cylinders? or just #6? if just #6, then maybe the scoring was deeper than what a 0.015" oversize bore would remove, and the machinist went larger on that one bore. However you should have been informed.

You are going to have to measure the bores and the pistons to figure what clearances exist there. I know Mercury brand Pistons are not perfectly round, but slightly oval when cold, but will be when warm and care is require regarding where measurements are taken, but if you used 3rd party pistons, that might not apply, and a 3rd party ring might have a different gap if it has a different expansion coefficient than a stock ring. Maybe you were shipped the wrong rings? Any paperwork with the pistons as to clearances and ring gaps?
If the machinist just bored all the holes too big, then you have a real problem, and so does he. I would expect he would be Anteing up for bigger pistons and rings and doing another rebore at no charge, though I would be leery of his capability/competence at that point


You had mentioned you had a prop with 22" pitch? I think that is way too much prop for your combo, a 17 would probably be the correct one. If you had been running the 22, then the reason for the piston damage is probably clear
 
Last edited:

Faztbullet

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
15,930
Looks like machinist screwed the pooch big time...bets it .025 instead of .015. No you cannot put oversize rings on pistons. This wouldnt help anyway if you could as bore to big.
 

elr

Seaman
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Messages
57
Great, just great....

I only used the feeler gauge on #6 and ring was about half an inch in. Only straightened with eyeball. Will straighten with piston tomorrow and recheck but won’t make that much difference. Also slid the ring all the way in and gap looked the same. All 6 cylinders eyeball the same size ring gap and I have at least a decent eye. Certainly none of them are anywhere close to .018 or even .024

Machinist has said he was going to measure every piston and bore accordingly. If any variance he would number the pistons for me. When I picked it up he said they were all consistent. Makes it seem strange that he would just mess it up after checking them.

Guess I’ll do some more checking and then ride over to machinist sometime, show him the ring gap and see what happens. Afraid he’ll just stick to his guns and say he matched bore to pistons... ring gap is my problem... and I don’t have the equipment to prove him wrong.
 

racerone

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
38,438
Remove a piston from the crankshaft.-----Insert piston into a bore skirt first with a strip of 1" wide newspaper on one side.----Is the piston still really sloppy in there, yes or no ?
 

elr

Seaman
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Messages
57
Well after that month-and-a-half break I'm back... In the meantime I took the block back to the machinist and he says the bore is six thousandths bigger then piston diameter, which is what it should be (according to him). He checked the ring gap and said it was showing .032" or so... He says that is a little on the big size but rather that then too small. He says I might could call pro marine and just see if they've had any issues with rings getting mis-labeled, but he would have no trouble assembling and running as is. He says I won't have any problems, will have good compression, etc. Only thing is as the rings wear the gap gets larger so instead of getting say 15 years out of this rebuild, I may just get 10 or something like that.
Not totally happy about that answer but at this point my options are limited. I did talk to another mechanic and he thought it should be ok as is. Not sure what else to do except assemble and run it. So that is what I'm doing. Have the power head together and am working on the accessories... Took the carbs to a friend to clean with his ultrasonic cleaning deal. He is of the preliminary opinion that I should get carb rebuild kits for them. I tend to agree, but at this point haven't been able to determine which is correct kit... Anybody have any pointers for that?
 

racerone

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
38,438
Sorry-----Bore should be about 0.003" bigger than the piston.-----Measured at the skirt.-------And 0.032 ring gap is too big on new rings !!----Have someone else measure this for you !
 

Faztbullet

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
15,930
1) need to find better mechanics
2) machinist is full of bull hockey and engine will never run with those clearances. He need to man up and rebore correctly(for free) and help you out $$ on new pistons.
3) or take to different machinist and have done correct and send old machinist the bill..
4) get on CL and find you a running motor
5) in short your getting ….

5
screwed.jpg
 
Last edited:

jimmbo

Supreme Mariner
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
13,642
I see you are using the crank rated140/115 Prop rated Pistons(have the 1" Power Port hole), not that they will increase the power(they need the corresponding channel carved in the Cylinder Wall to function). They may/might reduce the crankcase compression slightly.
 

Faztbullet

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
15,930
I have ran ported pistons in non ported blocks and never saw any increases or problems..they are low domes as high domes are NOS now
 

elr

Seaman
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Messages
57
I noticed the extra port in the pistons but just guessed that it didn't matter...

So decision time for me.... Does everyone else agree with faztbullet and racerone that the clearances are wrong and this motor will not run or at least not long term as currently configured?

If that is the general consensus, then I guess I need to have another "friendly" talk with my machinist (or ex-machinist). Pro Marine is very helpful and sympathetic to my current plight and said if I carefully disassemble and send pistons back they will inspect and see if they can return/exchange anything. They concurred with previously stated opinions that .006" is too big for piston to cylinder clearance. They said the motor would knock and maybe not last very long.

So I want to go back and re-confront the machinist and see what happens. Best case scenario is that he agrees to re-bore (correctly) at no charge to next bigger oversize. Then pro marine says they could do at least a partial exchange. Again, best case scenario and not sure that will happen. Someone said about the machinist, "One thing about Wayne is that he is always right".

So what I'm looking for right now is reinforcement opinions and your qualifications as well... maybe I can overwhelm him with the quantity and quality of your voices...

1) Is .006" the wrong clearance and is .003" for sure the correct clearance? (I work at a metal fab shop and just an hour ago was talking to another machinist about my predicament and he thought .003" sounded pretty tight... maybe too tight. He does some engine work but admitted he doesn't know boat motors in particular.)

2) Will this motor run as is?

3) What is the authority/experience behind your answers?

Thanks for all your help,

A needy friend.
 

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
Staff member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
50,269
faztbullet and racerone are the authorities

1 - .006" per side is way too much clearance
2. - probably not
3 - see faztbullet and racerone

and .006" clearance is more than the clearance on my big block with 4.31" diameter pistons rule of thumb is .001" per inch of bore
 

elr

Seaman
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Messages
57
Ok, hang on... Scott danforth just used the phrase “per side”. So are we talking about the same thing here?

I would say .006” clearance means total clearance, which is .003” per side.
 
Top