1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

[timmeraw]

I picked up this 30 HP Chrysler (1980) that I am trying to get running right. Just finished fixing the lower unit after some diy'er had removed the shift pivot screw/pin. That was fun. Now I have it running/pumping/shifting etc but it is not running right. It's misfiring at idle something fierce (see video). I replaced the coils with ones I had around off an 89 force but that didn't resolve. Been trying to get the timing/sych correct. I found TDC and then located 30 degrees BTDC which I believe it is supposed to be. Marked then both on the flywheel and power head as you can see in this picture. Now when I run it with a timing light 30 degree mark is not lining up with the mark on the power head...OR....is the 30 degree supposed to show up where the TDC mark is on the powerhead? If so it is getting close to it but I believe is a bit late.



TDC is marked on flywheel to the right of the BTDC.. ignore the mark on the powerhead below the 30... I believe that the fire should be at 30 BTDC as in as it goes past TDC right?

Here is the video I took to show you the erratic idle and the timing results.

DSCN5490 - YouTube

Not really sure how to get everything set correctly. Like the stuff about the throttle cam just touching the roller at the mark...it is not quite touching etc.

I was just out playing with it again and manually advancing the throttle arm with one hand and running the timing light with the other and boy did I get zapped. I gotta get a water mister and see if I can see arching around the plug leads.

 

[wickware]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

The Pros Will Be Here Soon! Hopefully, the word ?Idiot? did not turned them away. That is a fairly common mistake before new owners learn the L/U Maintenance process and others.

Did the previous owner share any past history related to what started the backfire? Such as, he hit a stump, which could have sheared a flywheel key and caused the timing to be off. Any past history as to what has happened and what has been done will help.

1. What type of ignition sys does this engine have?
2. Have you pulled the flywheel and checked the points if it has points?
3. Are you sure it?s a 1980, 30 HP, Chrysler and can you post a pic of the ID plate showing Ser ? Mod #?
4. Will you post 4 close pics of the motor with the cover off and one full motor pic from linkage side top to prop?

All of this plus more that you can think to share should help.

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

Good point.....I removed that nasty reference. I will get some pics soon. Past owner couldn't give me much and I wouldn't have believed much he said anyways. Said that it was stuck in reverse or something after impeller change...figured it was an easy fix(guess not...thought I had it fixed but it is not).
Yes I am sure it is a 1980...I referenced it by model number and no the ignition is electronic not points/condensors. It is all pretty much the same as the 1989 Force 35 parts motor i have that has a bad scored cyl. It is very intermittent in that it's missing along and then all of a sudden it will smooth out and rpms go up but eventually will start the misfire again either on its own or when I start to play with throttle etc. Next step is replace the power pack with the one from the Force. The one that is on it seemed to have started to disintigrate on the flywheel side so I had gummed it over with liquid tape.

Actually before I do that I will take your advice and pull the flywheel to check the condition of the key and the trigger etc. Good thought thanks.

Just went out to do that...remembered it is a force/chrysler prestolite that does not have the holes for the puller which requires the pry bar banging on the crank method that I have never been a fan of. Its hard to see down the keyway but it looks like there is a key down in there.

 

[wickware]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

I think you will get some good info from the Pros when they pickup on your efforts.

1. Are you saying someone pulled the shift rod pin vs the drain plug? You thought you got it back into the fork but NO? That is a total pain if so and enough to give up a motor.

2. I am confused how the motor has two major issues if they are not related.

3. If the crank and flywheel key-way cuts are aligned and it is running I feel you do have a good key in the painful flywheel.

4. You mentioned intermitting Idling Etc which could be indicating a leaking electrical components that might show in the dark??

5. With it running I hope the timing is not off or not off too bad to cause more damage. Is the timing advancing when you give it gas?

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

Answers to your questions and pics.

1. Are you saying someone pulled the shift rod pin vs the drain plug? You thought you got it back into the fork but NO? That is a total pain if so and enough to give up a motor.

Yes apparently they did and when I tore the lower apart the little fork was lying in the bottom. I used a trick by someone here using thread and thought I had it back together correctly and when I manually turned the drive shaft and moved the shift shaft it appeared to be going from FWD to N to Rev but when I bolted the lower back up and ran it and shifted it was not working properly....ie started in n and then would go into FWD but not back to N. etc. something not right there.


2. I am confused how the motor has two major issues if they are not related.
Not sure exactly what that means other than the two issues are it is not shifting correctly and not running correctly

3. If the crank and flywheel key-way cuts are aligned and it is running I feel you do have a good key in the painful flywheel.
Without pulling the flywheel to confirm I think I see the key down deep where it should be but again...without the 3 tapped holes to use my puller I, for at least now, gave up on the thread the nut on and pound/pry method for now.

4. You mentioned intermitting Idling Etc which could be indicating a leaking electrical components that might show in the dark??

Read somewhere that if you mist water on/near the plug wires you can see arching to the block. Haven't tried.

5. With it running I hope the timing is not off or not off too bad to cause more damage. Is the timing advancing when you give it gas?

I think the timing is off and yes I can see the 30 degree mark I put on the flywheel move toward TDC (where I think it should be starting) when I advance the throttle(using the timing light).

Some pics of the motor: NOTE: The last pic attached is the 89 Force parts motor I have and just realized that the power pack or switch box will probably work but because the wiring terminal block is near it on the 89 it is at the other end of the block on the 80 Chrysler so wiring splicing extension will be necessary if I decide to swap it.







http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv241/tmeraw/DSCN5497.jpg

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

Without the manual??? Timing an outboard will be impossible.
The static timing is done not running.
Dynamic timing is done at WOT not safe.
If no one has touched it? It would be very unlikly to have "jumped time".
Misfiring at idle? Water in the gas?
The carb out of adjustment.
Start with air screw out 1 full turn from lightly seated.
Compression test?

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

I agree Jerry.... I have all kinds of outboard shop manuals but mostly Merc and OMC...this is the first Chrysler I have worked on. Should be no water in fuel...same tank I am and have been using on many other motors. Carb was cleaned and idle jet turned out 1 turn from seat. Comrpression is close to 120 of both cyls.

 

[wickware]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

1. Since you replaced the shift fork, I feel it?s possible a matter of getting your shifting coupling centered too get FNR. Is there a coupling to be adjusted or a direct non adjustable connection? If it is adjustable, disconnect the coupling and see if you can manually shift the rod up and down to get all gears. See attachments:

2. My ref to more than one major problem is that I feel the previous owner would have sold the engine after the 1st major issue vs getting into 2nd.

3. Would using a puller large enough to grab the outer lower teeth area of the flywheel appear more damaging than prying and knocking? I have seen the large puller used here and maybe not recommended. I used the large puller or prying and knocking safer on some cast-iron lawnmower flywheels. What possibly faulty components are under the fly with electronic ignition?

 

[Nordin]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

I checked out your video at Youtube and that is an ign. issue. One plug is grounding out.
Check the wires in the ign.system for cracks.

The 30dgr mark is homemade. Normally you have the timingmark at the flywheel #1 cyl. (top) in the front of the engine. I see you have the timinglight pickup at #1 cyl. That is right BUT then you should have the mark pointing forward.
Seems that a preowner have make the 30dgr mark with the lightpickup at #2 cyl.
These 30Hp has fixed timing, you can not adjust it. The only thing you can adjust is the throttle pickup point.

As I said check for cracks in wires, even the hightension wires. You have a intermittent grounding at one cyl.

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

Thanks for the tip on that shift shaft adjuster wickware....I took the 6 bolts out holding the exhaust outer housing on but the piece on the inside(which is still covering the shift shaft cannot be taken out thru that gap that I can see? When I had the foot off it did seem to shift properly then I put it back on it did not. Also...I see 3 dummy drill holes in the flywheel indented just a tad so I will use those to drill/tap holes thru to use my harmonic puller.

Nordin... I make the 30degree mark. I could not find a TDC mark on the flywheel so using a screwdriver in the #1 cyl hole I figured out where TDC was and I made a mark on the flywheel at the back center. Then counting the teeth and doing the divide by 360 and multiply by 30 I counted that number of teeth ahead of the TDC mark. So my assumption is that if it supposed to be firing 30 degrees in advance of TDC it(the 30 degree markl) should be illuminating with the timing light right about when it passes TDC. Is that right?

As for the ignition ...I do believe that your are correct and will go over all wires and plug wires next.

Thanks.
Tim

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

Ok I have got it narrowed down to ignition on the bottom cyl/plug. When I pulled the plug wire off the bottom cyl it is running along on the top smoothly(as smooth as a twin can run on one cyl). Put it back on ..intermittent fire and stop. pull the top one and it dies.

Can't be the the coil or plug wire....put the old one back on...same thing. Saw a kink pinch in the white wire going to the coil so I pulled the power pack off and coated the wire in liquid tape....it didn't appear to be cut thru to the wire btw.

Now I am thinking either something in power pack feeding that lower coil or maybe something under the flywheel ...what trigger/stator. Not sure which wire feeds the power pack for each coil....no plain white wire coming out of it.

Yea I know time for a manual.

This is why I love working on the old motors with magnetos and points etc.

Thanks for any other thoughts.
Tim

 

[wickware]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

Tim, Two follow ups you might need verified:

1. If you pull the flywheel my Clymer is showing 55-65 ft lbs of torque, is that correct?

2. Is it possible you just needed to connect your shift rod since there was not a coupling inside the leg?s cover? If so, describe what could cause it not to shift gears if the fork is on the pivot pin?

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

Wickware.... thanks for the specs on the flywheel torque. I am not sure if there is a coupling inside the exhaust housing cover because I cant get that inside smaller piece off (not sure how you managed to do it in your pic) . I will send a pic ...my camera battery died.

I am not sure what is causing it not to shift now that I have it bolted back together...I did get the fork in place I believed and it appeared to be shifting fine when I was manually rotating the drive shaft and moving the small shift rod up and down. It is somewhat intermittent now when I shift it from the shift cam on the motor as is is running. Sometimes it goes into one gear and stays there no matter where I put it and then while playing it will go back into Neutral where it should. Baffling.

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

Doing more diagnostics on this engine. Does not appear to be any issues with any of the wiring and the coil and high tension wire are ruled out because I swapped another of the original coils back into it. It appears that the issue is only with the lower coil/plug....btw I also put a different spark plug in the lower cyl.

As you can see in this video... not much changes when I pull the lower plug off but it dies when I pulled the working top one.

DSCN5499 - YouTube

Maybe I will swap coils with plug wires within the motor to see if the issue changes cyls?

 

[Nordin]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

Yes check out the coils, switch them and see if the issue moves to #1 cyl. Maybee there is something in the trigger or the powerpack causing the issue.

About the lower unit, there is a coupler for the shiftrod behind the legcover. This is a design disaster, you have to loosen the lower shockmount covers making the kingpin free so you can tilt the middleg. This will give you free play to move the legcover front, then you can adjust the shiftrod coupler.

I have rebuilt a couple of 30 and 35Hp (late 35Hp from 25, 30, 35Hp enginefamily) and I hate that design.
The shiftrod has two threads. Shiftrod to shiftfork and the coupler at middleg. The rod should be adjusted so when you set the lower unit in forward there should be a distance of about 0,05 in between the rodnick and the top of waterimpellerhousing.

Hope you understand what I meen.

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

Ok Intermittant ignition issue solved. I had the luxury of having an 89 Force 35 Parts motor for donors so I systematically replaced the following in this order....none of which solved the misfire on #2 cyl.
1) The one coil then both
2) Better looking spark plugs from the Force
3) Pulled the flywheel (using the pry and bang method...wasn't that bad) . Everything looked fine as far as wiring goes but while I was at it I replaced the stator and trigger assembly with the known good ones from the Force

So the only thing left (and probably should have been the first) was the powerpack and Whola....running like a top. So now the motor has basically had a 10 year newer ignition upgrade

Now to the shifting issue. It's pretty close as when I manually shift using the cam I can get it from N - into F no problem..and then back to N ok. BUt when I go then to R it works but stays there when I put it back down into N on the Detent. I have go past N into F and back to N to get it there.

Spoke with the expert Franz in MO and mentioned that because I saw wear on the brass shift yoke it could be causing it by not having enough throw. Found one on ebay and have it coming. In mean time I will probably go thru the foolish process of loosening the lower shock mount and freeing the king pin to get at the shift coupler hidden behind the cover.

Thanks for all the suggestions and help.

Tim

 

[wickware]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

Tim, Congrats with the Ignition work! Please post a pic of the leg issue that is a challenge to adjust the shift coupling.

Good Luck With Your Project!

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1980 Chrysler 30hp - Idle/Timing Help Please?

Thank you wickware... I do appreciate you assistance and will do.