1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

bigmmcorp

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Mar 27, 2014
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Hi there was wondering if anyone had run into this problem and solved it I have no spark being sent to cylinders 2 and 4
I have replaced the stator the trigger #1 cdi and cylinder #2 coil, so no matter what I should get a spark on 2
yet I am not
I heard there was a blocking diode in the coils when talking to the guys at cdi
And when I unhooked everything but the number one cdi and # 2 coil still no spark on #2
Seems like the problem wires are the two reds coming off the trigger had it in a shop and was told the trigger and stator and coils all check out however something is wrong because I still have no spark on #2 and #4 any ideas?
 
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Jiggz

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

Have you verified the wiring using a wiring diagram starting with the trigger wires, stator wires, CD units, and coils? If you did, have you tried switching components around to do an elimination process?
 

bigmmcorp

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

Yes have the selco manual everything is placed correctly only thing I can think of is weak magnets off the flywheel which doesnt make alot of sense considering how well #1 and #3 fire or the regulator
I know all the coils are good I know all the cdi units are good I noticed it seems to be the red wires coming in so I am going to check the resistance tomorrow
 

MickLovin

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

125HP_thru89_eng.jpg
Hi bigmmcorp, I take it you have this diagram for your motor, I am no expert in regards to the elctrical for an outboard let alone a trigger, but as an electrician and being able to read an electrical diagram, the only thing I can see in it that would cause only 1 and 3 to fire and not the others are either the individual coils, the trigger which definately looks like it controls the individual cylinders spark via the module. As I say I am no expert, but is it possible that each module is defective? Unsure, but the module looks like it switch's the high voltage from the stator via the trigger. As I say I am no expert and I am going only from the diagram, others will have a lot more knowledge around the electrics on outboards, as I deal mainly with high voltage A/C not DC. Check all your grounds and make sure all have good connection with out corrosion under the terminals, a bad ground can cause all sorts of problems.
May I ask, how do you know the cdi's are good?
 

jerryjerry05

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

The flywheel magnet isn't the problem unless it's come loose.
It's glued in place.
The 85 came with the plug and go packs?
You still have them?
They were discontinued as the connectors FAILED a lot.
Try switching the Orange and Red lead to the coils from the top pack.
That might make the other plug fire.
You do a comp test.
What are you using for a spark tester?
Very rare that a coil's gone bad.
In almost 30 years I've found only one bad coil.
Most cases the connectors or grounds are the problem.
The shrink wrap on the connectors can hide a broken lead.
2 weeks ago I found a bad lead on my stbd. motor.
Was missing on start up and then would run ok.
Started them after setting fo 3 mo and it wouldn't run right.
Did the tug test on the trigger leads and the first one I touched#1 came loose in my hand.

Disconect the blue lead from the #1 pack and see if the bottom fires.
No spark,then reconnect the blue on top pack.
Have Spark? Then replace that pack
Then disconnect the blue from the bottom pack and see if #2 fires.
If either makes the other fire,replace the opposite pack.
 

Jiggz

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

Yes have the selco manual everything is placed correctly only thing I can think of is weak magnets off the flywheel which doesnt make alot of sense considering how well #1 and #3 fire or the regulator
I know all the coils are good I know all the cdi units are good I noticed it seems to be the red wires coming in so I am going to check the resistance tomorrow

Focus on the trigger wires and read the resistance between wire pairs (Red & White/Green) for 48~52 ohms. There are two wire sets of these colors feeding #2 & #4 cyl. If resistance is good on both, then it is time to get a DVA to check for trigger voltage output. From the symptoms you provided and the fact you already did the elimination process by switching the coils, and CDM's, the only thing left to check is the trigger and associated wiring.
 

MickLovin

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

Well from reading his post he hasn't checked the cdm, he replaced one and he has already changed the trigger. Doesn't sound right you, would have two triggers bad.
 

bigmmcorp

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Mar 27, 2014
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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

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Correct I have played around with the ignition coils taking the orange wire from #1 coil will spark #2 and same thing goes for #3 and #4
Checked resistance on the trigger today its right around 52 ohms for each trigger #1 #2 #3 #4
Checked the trigger for a short to ground no short
when checking trigger output all where plus.5V except #4 it actually dropped.
not sure what this means
 

bigmmcorp

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

Going to check the old ignition module that hasn't been replaced everything else is new then ill check the new one
Made a few assumptions that things where working because I had a Marine shop check it out however all they could tell me was they couldn't find a issue with any components
 

bigmmcorp

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

The one thing that doesn't make sense is that I am getting no spark on 2 new trigger new stator new ignition module new coil why would it not fire???
 

bigmmcorp

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

checked stator resistance only getting 276ohm's manual is saying 300-500ohms
raining now going to put it back together when it drys up and test out put and disconnecting the blue stator wire from the module and see if that makes any difference
 

Jiggz

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

With the trigger resistance within range that is a good sign. I understand you tried switching the orange wire from the CDM's, i.e. from #1 to #2 and was able to see positive spark on #2 and had the same positive results with #3 orange wire to #4 cylinder. With the preceding testing or switching of orange and red wires, it proved and tested ignition coils are all properly working.

Another component you can eliminate is the stator. Since only a pair of wires (yellow and blue wires) feed each CDM, and both CDM's are getting powered as indicated by the spark on #1 and #3, it means power from the stator is good. And thus the diagnosis only leaves three major components, trigger, CDM's and wiring.

Resistance check on the trigger and also voltage output seems to be positive (except for #4). Which if we only focus on #2 cylinder for now, means that the only component left to be diagnose and tested is the CDM and associated wiring. CDM's have single power source provided on the yellow and blue wires from the stator. However, inside there are two separate ckts which are fed by two separate trigger signal ckts (2 pair of wires) timed by the magnet orientation in the flywheel. It is not unusual that one ckt will die separately from the other ckt although both are housed on the same CDM component. And since this CDM is sealed, there is really no way of diagnosing except through process of elimination using known working component.

Now, since you know for a fact that the #1 ckt on the #1 CDM (feeding both #1 and #2 cylinders or coils) is working when you switched the orange coil wire to #2 and had positive spark, you should also be able to validate the #2 ckt on the #1 CDM could be faulty if you switch it over (the red coil wire) to #1 cylinder coil. If you see no spark then it is an indication the #2 ckt (on #1 CDM) could be bad. SWITCH BACK THE ORANGE AND RED COIL WIRES BACK TO THEIR ORIGINAL CONFIGURATION BEFORE THE NEXT TEST.

But then there is also the question of the trigger signal feeding the #2 ckt (in #1 CDM). To validate this you will need to switch the pair of trigger wires feeding each ckts in the #1 CDM, i.e. OR & GRN with RD & WH-GRN. YOu do this in the terminal board located in the engine cowling. NOTE: YOU SHOULD BE DOING THIS TEST WITH ALL PLUGS REMOVED FROM THE CYLINDERS BUT ALSO GROUNDED. THIS TEST CAN CAUSE A SERIOUS BACKFIRE THAT COULD CAUSE DAMAGE TO THE INTERNALS OF THE ENGINE.

With the trigger wire pairs switched, it means the timing of trigger signals between #1 and #2 cylinders is way off and could cause back fire so make sure you are doing this test with the plugs off or removed from the cylinder or just use spare plugs wired ground to the engine body. Since you've already proved there is 0.5V+ on the #2 trigger wire, you should see sparks on #1 plug since you already validated the CDM's #1 ckt, coils and wiring are all working. If there is spark on #1 it tells you the trigger signal for #2 is working. And if there is no spark on #2 it tells you #2 CDM ckt is bad (anD this is because you already proved the trigger signal for #1 is working) and the CDM needs to be replaced. However, if there is no spark on #1 it tells you the trigger signal from #2 is bad or not working. And if there is spark on #2 it tells you the CDM's #2 ckt is good. If there is no spark on neither #1 or #2 it tells you the trigger signal for #2 and the CDM's #2 ckt are both bad. THIS DOES NOT NECESSARILY TELL YOU THE TRIGGER IS BAD IT COULD ALSO BE THE MAGNETS UNDER THE FLYWHEEL WHICH YOU SHOULD ALSO INSPECT AS A PART OF THIS TROUBLESHOOTING.

CAUTION - Make sure remove all plugs and are grounded properly. Disconnect the white wire from each CDM coil from the engine terminal board to ensure the kill switch doesn't affect the testing and diagnosis. The disconnected white wire should be taped temporarily and lifted from ground.

You can do the same troubleshooting with #3 and #4 although you might want to validate the #4 trigger signal output voltage first.
 
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pnwboat

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

If it's a factory OEM stator it should read 680 - 850 OHMs. If it's a CDI Electronics aftermarket replacement stator, it should read 300 - 400 OHMs. Either way I would say it's bad.
 

MickLovin

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

If it's a factory OEM stator it should read 680 - 850 OHMs. If it's a CDI Electronics aftermarket replacement stator, it should read 300 - 400 OHMs. Either way I would say it's bad.

I agree with what you are saying here pnwboat, but disagree that it is the stator, as if it was the stator he waould have no fire to either one or the other cdi, as it stands, he has fire from one circuit of #1 cdm and one circuit #2 cdm.
Can I ask if you put the new cdm on as number 2 which controls cylinder 3 & 4 do you still not get spark to number 4, it may be possible you had 2 x cdms faulty and also the trigger to number 4, but if you replace the cdm to 3 & 4 you could eliminate the trigger. Personally I would take it to an auto-electrician to test all your electrical componants, although he may not have the tester for the cdm/cdi.
 

bigmmcorp

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

Jiggz I have switched the orange wires #1 or #3 across any coil and they will fire the red wires #2 and #4 will not fire any coil I am almost thinking of just sending back the trigger and both cdm and saying this isn't working
 

bigmmcorp

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

the stator is a new never seen water cdi stator so yes it is below levels however there is good spark on 1 and 3 so I agree dont see that as a problem
 

bigmmcorp

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

Also I believe I did reverse the input stator lines and had it back fire didnt disconnect opps
 

pnwboat

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

If it's a new stator, so much for that theory....
 
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MickLovin

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

Big are you saying they are both new cdi's, stator and trigger? If they are take them all back and get them to either replace or test.
 

MickLovin

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Re: 1985 Force 125 no spark on coils 2 and 4

Still think you have a trigger problem.
 
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