1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

[timmeraw]

I just picked up a really nice clean Gamefisher 7.5 (built by Force) short shaft that appears to have very low hours. Problem is the recoil. When pulled it just comes out and spring brings it back it but does not engage the flywheel. I pulled the recoil off and do not see anything link pauls/springs to engage the flywheel. I found this parts diagram on the sears site matching the model number (Model #225581750)

http://www.searspartsdirect.com/par...00032238/00006?blt=06&prst=0&shdMod=225581750

Though it looks like it matches identically to my recoil assembly I don't see anything that would indicate missing or needed to engage the flywheel. The darn flywheel doesn't even have a method to use a rope to wind and pull.

What am I missing?

I'm stumped and would appreciate anyone familiar with this to help me out.

Thanks,
Tim

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

Anyone willing to take a stab?

 

[wickware]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

Can you show "your Pics" of where you feel the starter should engage with your flywheel? Plus, the starter?s mechanics that possibly engage with the flywheel. I am searching but have not seen a good information diagram. Something could be missing or not moving to engage the two that pics should show.

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

Sure I can take a couple of pics. Nothing appears to be missing and according the parts diagram for my motors recoil(like I posted) I have everything listed. Does not appear to be any pauls or teeth or anything to engage the flywheel...which by the way besides the two square troughs and a few small holes...does not appear to have anything to engage to. Hang on while I grab the pics.



Thanks.
Tim

 

[wickware]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

Am I seeing on the bottom of the recoil section that there is a plastic section that is to move down into the plastic section on the flywheel? If so, when you pull the string with the starter off, does the plastic section move down? If not and it should, have you tried to lubricate and apply light force to get that part to move?

 

[wickware]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

Are you seeing needle bearings in the recoil section that fits over the shaft? If so, look at Info found in a search on this board at the address below (related to bearings as grippers in one direction).

http://forums.iboats.com/other-outboard-brands/early-90s-gamefisher-recoil-301316.html

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

No I am not seeing anything that would engage the flywheel....pulling it on or off the motor. Something has to be missing but again as I said looking at the parts diagrams for this motor I don't see it there either? Really strange.

 

[wickware]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

Please take a closer look and ?Pic? inside the recoil section at the roller bearings that I saw related as Gripper Bearings. You might see the answer to engaging the starter and flywheel. I?ll guess these bearings will be mounted on slants vs vertical to work as grippers (to grip and turn the shaft and flywheel). If so, please try and send a close inside pic that will show this for the records/searches.

Depending on the cover?s clearance, I can see a rope pull adapter added to start on emergences as on my 35HP Chrysler (with the cover off). This has been interesting with "patience" and I wish you the best results.

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

I thought that perhaps the bearings inside the recoil would grip on centrifucal force maybe but they don't ...maybe as there is an abundance of grease on the top of the crank and inside the recoil. Get a pic now...hang on. But they did not appear to functioning like that.?

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

You may be onto something here. Cleaned the grease off the spindle on crank and inside the recoil. Looks like two sets of bearings...one down deep for crank spindle and another set higher that may grip it. I think the spring needs to be tightened so I will take it apart tight and try to do that.
Stay tuned....thanks for the ideas.
Tim

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

nope...can't figure this out.

 

[wickware]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

Send Nordin a private message or open message here with his name in the title. He referenced that he work for Force and might have experience with this matter. I?m surprised someone has not shared the real fix or problem.

Under Forum at the top left I saw some posts relating to Gamefisher under Other Outboard Brands. You might glance through a few of those pages and get lucky. IMO I would try to contact Nordin 1st. Such as: A new post and give him the address to the current post and info (both below).

Nordin, Can you help me with a Gamefisher (at the address below) or point me in the direction for help. Thanks!

. http://forums.iboats.com/other-outboard-brands/1988-gamefisher-force-recoil-issue-594839.html

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

Thanks again wickware. I sent him a PM and referenced him back to this thread. Searched thru all of his answers but didn't find an answer. He mentions Franzmarine a lot so I am going to call them shortly(in MO).

Found yet another post out there with same problem and no real solution.

http://www.mercurypartsus.com/forum...er-15hp-mercury-force-starter-wth-th2347.html

I am watching a whole starter assembly off a 15hp Gamesfisher on ebay right now that ends in 3 days....

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

I spoke to a real nice guy named Franz...Franzmarine.com in KC MO. He is the go to Chrysler Force guy and was not even aware of how these starter recoils really work. He also figures that the bearing inside must work like a one-way clutch of sorts but mine certainly are not. I believe that the same recoils appear to have also been used on some Mercs as well as the 9.9 and 15 versions of this Gamefisher by Force. It appears to be in fine condition and I just don't like the thoughts of trying to find another one and pay that much money without knowing mine is shot.

OK while I still try to figure out this recoil issue...I need to get the flywheel off to clean and set the points. Which is my next baffling hurdle. Unlike every other make/model of flywheel I have removed, this one has no tapped holes to connect a harmonic puller to. Instructions I have gathered....there is a special tool which is just a break nut that you screw down onto the threads of the crank to protect it while you bang it with a hammer while prying up on the flywheel. Well I found the proper fine threaded nut and began soaking with PBlaster and have tried the prying with tapping method using a small pry bar under the edge of the flywheel but it is not budging whatsoever.

This motor is just full of quirky non-service friendly features.

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

Making some progress. Finally got the flywheel popped off ...there was some rust holding it tight. First thing I noticed was that the flywheel had been rubbing some on both coils. I removed / filed/ set the points to what I assume it should be .020. Cleaned up the top of the crank and inside tapered center hole in flywheel and replaced. Using a socket on the flywheel nut I can get some spark on both leads.

Now if I can only use the recoil to try and get it fired up. I am still baffled by this crazy recoil design...with what has been described as one-way bearing. I have soaked the internal bearings with everything from Carb cleaner to MAF cleaner and blown out well with compressed air but still no grab. Spin out and back.

Hey...I guess that there is such a thing as a one-way needle bearing clutch. Here is one ...maybe I find one to fit? http://www.fasteddybearings.com/12x...h&adtype=pla&gclid=CLCpwpv7i7YCFQThQgod7lMAyg

And how they work here: http://www.rctek.com/technical/bearings/bearings_one_way.html

I am watching a replacement starter recoil housing on ebay that closes soon so I will probably order it ($20 + 15 shipping). Hopefully it isn't in the same condition of not working as mine is.

Stay tuned.

 

[RogersJetboat454]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

Those rollers grabbing the crank shaft definitely appear to be the method of engagement to me.

R/C glow engines use the same method for their one way bearings used in their starters, and some Automatic transmissions use a similar principal for holding gears (I'm sure the principal isn't limited to that, but just some examples).

Spun one way, and the rollers jam up, providing grip on the shaft. Spun the other way, or released, the rollers open up, and allow the shaft to spin freely. Chances are something may be broken in that one-way, and the rollers aren't getting a good bite on the shaft.

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

Yes sir you are correct. I even found the bearing part number and found that they are Japanese made NSK's. I cleaned them good with denatured alcohol and air sprayed and dried but they are still not catching on the crank spindle. Inspecting closely with a very small screw driver the springs seem to be working properly. There are 3 clusters of clutch needle bearings(4 in each) and when I push them from one end of their coupling slot to the other they move and spring back to the other end.

These bearing are pressed in so even if I can locate a replacement bearing I will have to find a machine shop to press out old and in new...as as it is some kind of composite material, not even sure if they are replaceable?

Have a bid in on the one on ebay so I guess I will hope to win that auction and get in a while.

What a stupid setup with no way to rope the flywheel in an emergency.

Tim

 

[RogersJetboat454]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

What a stupid setup with no way to rope the flywheel in an emergency.

Agreed...
Bet it was either a "let's try something new", OR "This will be cheaper than" moment...

 

[fishrdan]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

Yup. it's a 1-way bearing, I have the same thing on my 89 7.5HP Force/Gamefisher. Mine was working A-OK, and I lubed it with a couple drops of oil when I replaced the ignition. I use a socket the same size as the crank end, to test it out (make sure it was grabbing) before putting everything back together.

If you can get the bearing out, you'll probably find the bearing P/N on the casing. Though, I have no idea how to get it out,,, without ripping my outboard apart... (Not going there :lol

 

[timmeraw]

Re: 1988 Gamefisher(by Force) Recoil Issue

Just won auction for a Starter Recoil assembly on ebay.....now I have to wait and wait for it to get here. Fingers crossed that the bearings grip. Paid $20 + $15 shipping which is pretty fair. Wish I new someone driving here to Rochester NY from New Hampshire. ?

Stay tuned.
Tim