1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

tmyers921

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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I'm new to the boating world and I have a 89 Bayliner that was given to me. The boat is in pretty good shape otherthan the engine won't start. I notice a "Brown" wire running down a harness that appers to have burned. You can turn the engine by hand and I hook a postive post to the starter and it works fine. Has anyone else ever had a problem with a wire burning on their Force 125? Thanks
 

Frank Acampora

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Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

Welcome to the wonderful world of boating. You are about to embark on a learning experience.

There are no brown wires on the terminal strip on the starter motor side of the engine.

Now, You never fully defined what your problem is. Are you not able to crank the engine with the starter key? If the engine does not crank over with the key and you can jump the starter (as you said you can), then the starter is good. The start solenoid is located inthe front of the engine pan where the battery wires come in. One wire with a (usually) red end will be connected to the solenoid front terminal. There will also be two small terminals on the solenoid. One will have a yellow wire. This is from the start terminal on the ignition switch through the neutral interlock. If you can jump from the battery side of the solenoid to the yellow terminal on it and the solenoid closes, then it is good and we would suspect no power going to the ignition switch or more likely, the neutral interlock switch is either not depressed or broken. On the starboard side (right) below the carbs you will see a brown switch with a white button in the center. Two yellow wires connect to this switch. If the linkage does not depress the white button with the control lever vertical, then the interlock is not closing and no power is sent to the solenoid.

The terminal has wires in this order and color: From The TOP:

Mounting Screw
1. Yellow
2. purple
3. White
4. green
5. orange
6. red
7. blue
8. black.
Mounting Screw

Some Prestolite systems did have the wires in a different order but the colors were still all there.

So reply with which wire is burned (I'll bet it will either be red, green, or orange)

If the red wire is burned brown, and the neutral interlock and solenoid are good, then it is a good bet that no battery power is going through the circuit breaker at the bottom of the terminal board to the ignition switch. So there you have a couple of things to check.
 

tmyers921

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

Thank you for replying back Frank,

Please bare with me as I said I'm new at this. I'm at work right now and when I get home I will look and see what color that wire is.

This boat that I just got ,,,has been in storage since 2006. The engine is mounted with the fuel Line disconnected. The fuel bulb is harder than a rock and needs to be replaced.

If your standing beside the motor with the cover off,,,,,the front of the motor is left. Looking on the same side as the starter. Now,,,,also I noticed when I took off the cover,,,there are 2 square ,,,4 prong plugs that plug into 2 small components in the front corner of the engine houseing. They are in front of what looks like to me as a starter selenoid. (Talking Old School Auto Mechanics),,,,,,,,,,,,,,anyway,,,,,,these two plugs were "unpluged" when 1st opened the cover. The "burnt wire" in question,,,,,,runs under the selenoid and up by the control panel of various wires.

I took a jump box and ground one end to the motor and with the hot end,,,,touched the bottom termnal on the starter and it begain to spin. I also noticed the "nut" that connects that wire to the bottom of the starter is loose.????

Sorry to bore you,,,,buy I do thank you so much for your info. The motor is very clean,,,,no oil leaks,corrison,,,very clean. I wish I could post a picture and let you see. Thanks again Frank!
 
Last edited:

kandil

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Aug 8, 2008
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567
Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

Hello and welcome to iboats some time a picture is better than a thousand word!! it is easy to post photos in your post click on Manage attachments and upload your photos make sure the size is not too large.
 

tmyers921

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

Hey,,,,,thanks,,,,,,I will do that! You are right about a picture being worth a thousand words!
 

rcracerx

Seaman
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
58
Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

See my post about electrical trouble shooting my 125 and I have attached and included a full size image of my motor and the terminals you are talking about. Feel free to use my Pic to describe what you are wanting to say.

Good Luck
Rc
 

tmyers921

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Dec 6, 2008
Messages
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Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

Thank you for your reply,,,,

Did you ever get your motor going? I read your statements and it sounds like we bought the same boat. I too,,,,,,,,,have to install a new deck. Wiring scares me to death! I'm scared of fire!

The other day when I tested the starter,,,,,,,,as I was touching the "hot" post of the jump box to the hot on the starter,,,the starter started spinning and after a bit I too seen SMOKE coming from the black panel that has all the wires connected to it.
 

Frank Acampora

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Messages
12,004
Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

OK! First, some standard terms. If you are sitting in the boat facing forward then PORT is left and STARBOARD is right. So we can describe the engine the same way. The starter is on the port side of the engine. Electronic boxes are on starboard.

The two 4 prong things in front of the solenoid are sockets and relays for the tilt/trim system. If you look closely you will see that they have 5 prongs.

If your engine has a tilt/trim system, you will see the motor on the starboard side transom mounting clamp and the hydraulic cylinders between the clamps. Follow the wires from the motor into the engine compartment. Jump 12 volts into the opening with either the heavy blue wire or heavy green wire. Jump ground into the one you did not use. (be careful: There are a thin green wire and a thick green wire on one socket and a thin blue and thick blue wire on the other socket. Thin wires are signal and thick are power.) If the motor hums but does not spin, then stop, you have a short or the motor is stuck and that is why the relays are disconnected. That may also be why the wire is burned.

I think you described the burned wire as connecting to the battery side of the solenoid. There is a red wire that connects to the battery side of the solenoid and runs underneath to the circuit breaker below the terminal board behind the starter. This would be the wire that delivers 12 volts 2 ways: into the battery when charging and from the battery to accesories when alternator does not deliver enough current. A shorted trim motor could cause this wire to overheat and burn.

If the wire in question is a heavy red wire to the relay sockets, it is part of the two trim relay circuit wires. Then, it is likely that the trim motor is shorted or stuck.

Loose nut on the starter terminal is no biggie: It might spark or might give a high resistance connection and starter won't develop full power, but it will not have done harm. Just tighten it.
 

tmyers921

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Messages
124
Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

OK! First, some standard terms. If you are sitting in the boat facing forward then PORT is left and STARBOARD is right. So we can describe the engine the same way. The starter is on the port side of the engine. Electronic boxes are on starboard.

The two 4 prong things in front of the solenoid are sockets and relays for the tilt/trim system. If you look closely you will see that they have 5 prongs.

If your engine has a tilt/trim system, you will see the motor on the starboard side transom mounting clamp and the hydraulic cylinders between the clamps. Follow the wires from the motor into the engine compartment. Jump 12 volts into the opening with either the heavy blue wire or heavy green wire. Jump ground into the one you did not use. (be careful: There are a thin green wire and a thick green wire on one socket and a thin blue and thick blue wire on the other socket. Thin wires are signal and thick are power.) If the motor hums but does not spin, then stop, you have a short or the motor is stuck and that is why the relays are disconnected. That may also be why the wire is burned.

I think you described the burned wire as connecting to the battery side of the solenoid. There is a red wire that connects to the battery side of the solenoid and runs underneath to the circuit breaker below the terminal board behind the starter. This would be the wire that delivers 12 volts 2 ways: into the battery when charging and from the battery to accesories when alternator does not deliver enough current. A shorted trim motor could cause this wire to overheat and burn.

If the wire in question is a heavy red wire to the relay sockets, it is part of the two trim relay circuit wires. Then, it is likely that the trim motor is shorted or stuck.

Loose nut on the starter terminal is no biggie: It might spark or might give a high resistance connection and starter won't develop full power, but it will not have done harm. Just tighten it.
Thanks Frank,,,,,,,,,,I'm getting ready to go home and I will look at this. I do have a trim motor. I will also try to post some pics so you can see what I'm doing. Sorry for being so dumb in this catagory. As I said this is all new to me. But it sounds LIKE FUN!!! Thanks,,,
 

tmyers921

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Messages
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Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

Maybe there is hope for me after all.

Frank,,,,,,,,,,,The wire that I thought was brown that is burnt,,,,,,,,,,,,,well,,,,,,,it's a black ground wire running from the bottom of the juction panel on the port side of the motor just behind the starter. The other end goes to the front mounting screw that holds the selenoid in place. It runs into and with another short wire that connects on top of the selenoid. I ran a new wire from this panel to the front screw on the selenoid.

Then I installed a Brand New Battery and connected the wires. I then put a test light between the two post on top of the selenoid and recieved a red light. I found the circut breaker and made sure it was set. I then installed new fuses into the fuse panel under the helm. I look at the throttle to make sure it was in nutural. THEN,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I turned the key and,,,,,,,,,NOTHING!

After touching my test light here and there,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I went back to the old stand by to check the Starter. I grounded my black clamp to the same Ground Nut where the main Battery Wires come and then with the Red Clamp,,,,,touched the hot post on the Starter,,,,and nothing. I was getting ALOT of charge there though.

I decided I would remove the starter,,,,,,,,,,,I grounded the jump box Black Clamp and after tighten the Starter Post,,,I touched it with the Red Clamp and nothing.

Do you think it could be bad starter? Also while I had the New Battery hooked up, I pushed the button for the Trim Motor and heard nothing.:confused:

Thank you for your help. I will post pics tommorow.
 

Frank Acampora

Supreme Mariner
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Messages
12,004
Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

OK! You have multiple problems so we need to take them one at a time. Let's start with the starter motor. If you got heavy sparking when you jumped the starter, and it still did not spin, then you have a problem there. (you said you were getting a lot of charge through there)

First, try turning the bendix by hand to see if the motor is jammed inside. Sometimes corrosion will jam the bearings. The internal clearances are a little tight and a small amount of rust on the armature will also jam it.

If the motor does not spin by hand, then it is time to take it apart. First remove the top nut holding the bendix--not easy--it is a deformed thread nut and difficult to spin off.

If it does spin by hand, it is very difficult to diagnose a shorted armature because it is a very low resistance winding. For that, you will need to take it to a starter repair shop. However, you can remove the bottom end cap and see the condition of all four brushes.

Now remove the bendix--it will spin right off. Remove the two mounting screws. They also hold the end caps on the motor. Some screw into the top cap, some just slip through it. NOW: BEFORE you pull off the end caps, understand that the brushes are spring loaded and reassembly can be difficult. If you feel you may have too much difficulty, do not remove the end caps.

Assuming you do remove the end caps, then pull out the armature. Clean it if rusty and using very fine sandpaper, clean the copper commutator. Do not use emery; it is conductive. If the end caps were stuck on the shaft, clean the shaft and re-oil with a good heavy weight oil. Not too much or it will work its way into the brushes and foul them. The bearings are sintered bronze and will absorb a little oil.

Now re-assemble the starter motor and test it with 12 volts to see if it turns If it does, try it on the engine, if it does not, buy another one or have it rebuilt.

NOW: After all this I am going to tell you that Force engines can be relatively easily pull started. The ignition system is self energising and you do not need the starter. You do need a battery connected so that you do not damage the alternator or rectifier.

For test purposes only, disconnect the white wire from the terminal board on the starter side and be sure it does not ground out on anything. This disables the stop circuit. If there is nothing wrong with the ignition, the engine will spark and fire if it has gas.

For ease of pulling, take all the plugs out and ground them all to avoid damage to the ignition components. Wrap a stout rope around the top of the flywheel and pull. Have someone check for spark while you pull. If you have spark, then re-connect the white wire and turn on the ignition switch. If you now have no spark, the switch is bad.

So: once you get the starter motor corrected, then come back and we will discuss any other problems. And remember: There are NO stupid questions; only stupid people! Oops! Not very politically correct LOL
 

tmyers921

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

Thanks Frank,,
I'm taking the starter to a shop today to have it checked. I did take it apart yesterday and I SEEN what you mean about putting it back together,,,,wew!! You can spin it by hand.

I will give you a update after I get back from the shop.

PS-----What is the Oil/Gas mixture for this Boat. 50-1??? I have a gas tank built in board it looks like a 25 or so gallon tank. I'm going to pump out all the old fuel in there and start fresh and someone told me to add Seafoam. What ya think???

Talk to soon Frank,

Tim Myers Staunton,Va
 

tmyers921

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

Hey Frank,,,,,,,,,,Hey Guys,,,,,,,,,,,

GREAT NEWS!!!!

I took the Starter up to Auto Zone and had them check it out. The first test they did it shot sparks. FAILED! They told me to take it out to this local shop that rebuilds Starters,Alt,etc. The guy out there ask how long it had been since it was started and I told him I jumped it the other day and it started spinning but now nothing but sparks. He spun the shaft a couple of times and said "I bet if you took this apart and cleaned and oiled it ,,,,,,,,,,,it would be fine".

So I went out to my truck, took it apart and clean it with some stuff he gave me,,,,,,,,,,,,,after fighting with them 4 Brushes at the bottom, I had it back together and went back inside his shop. I told him what I did and he gave it a good shot of oil and told me to let it set about 10 minutes.

After waiting a bit,,,,,,,,he put the Starter on his test machine and it PASS!

I took it home and reinstalled it,,,,,,,took the Battery off Charge and Hooked up everything. I also replaced that BURNT GROUND WIRE with a 10Gauge Black wire,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,took a min to look over everything,,,,,,,,,,drank a cup of coffee,,,,,,,,,,,climbed in the boat,,,,,,,,,,,,1st blew the horn and it worked,,,,,,,then reached down pushed the key in and the choke moved,,,,,,and then turned the key and she started turning over!!!!! WOO HOO!!!

I stuck a stick down in the fuel tank and there is about 4" of fuel in it. I need to go but a Fuel Bulb. I would like to pump that old fuel out. I have some Stabil and some Seafoam and Carb Cleaner.

Keep the tips coming guys,,,,,,,,,,,,Frank I would love to have your address and Phone# so I could send some Christmas Cash! Thank you so much my friend!!:)
 

tmyers921

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Messages
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Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

I Have Her RUNNING! After just a bit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,She took right off. I don't have the tools to do a compression check but she sounds OK.

I do a QUESTION:

I hook up the Muffs and turned on the Water. The 2 Holes below the engine start "Spitting Water" out. And Now,,,,,,,,,,When I shut her off,,,,,,,,,,ALOTT OF STEAM Comes out of the holes.

Any Suggestions?
 

tmyers921

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Messages
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Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

Well,,,,,,,,,,,I jumped the big blue wire and all was quite. I turned the key to on and made sure there was power back there,,,,,,,,,,,,pushed the (UP) trim switch button on the throttle and nothing. I pushed the other (DOWN) trim button and I heard the "clicking" sound on the relay.

I disconnected the other relay and jumped the big GREEN wire and the same thing happened as above. I gently tapped on the relays and tapped on the top of the trim motor,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,went up and pushed the trim button on the throttle again,,,,,,,I heard the clicking sound and then the Circut Breaker Tripped. I reset the circut breaker and tested my starter and she tried to start.

Can this motor be torn apart and cleaned and rebuilt?

Thanks ,,,,,,Tim
 

Frank Acampora

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12,004
Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

While I appreciate your enthusiam and willingness to give Christmas Gifts, NO CASH! The purpose of this forum is not to make money but to spread knowledge of Force/Chrysler engines.

Your gift to me is to learn as much about these engines as you can so in the future you also can contribute meaningful answers to other peoples questions.

The trim motor is sort-of like a smaller version of the starter motor. Try disassembling it and cleaning like you did with the starter. Then if that fails, you would need to try to buy a used on.

You have me a little confused as to how you checked the relays though See, when the blue wire has 12 volts, the green wire must be grounded and the motor will turn in one direction. Then when you put 12 volts on the green wire and ground the blue, the motor will turn the other direction. Each relay is by default at groundand only when energised does that wire have 12 volts.

If you have in essence done this and the motor hums or pops the circuit breaker then the problem is almost certainly within the motor. Possibly jammed or shorted. Jamming will take a small amount of time to pop the breaker; shorting will pop it immediately.
 

tmyers921

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

OOOOOO' Ok.

I see,,, so with both relays unhooked,,,,,,,,,, on the one Connecter (Cluster) lets say BLUE,,,,,,,,,,,,,I connect a hot 12v to it and on the other Connecter (Cluster) which is the big GREEN Wire,,,I connect the GROUND to it. Right? AND THEN,,,,,,,,,,,,VISE VERSA.

Is this Right!


Thanks Frank,,
 

Sugo

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Nov 11, 2008
Messages
160
Re: 1989 125 Force Outboard Wiring Burnt

Sorry to jump in but I had the same problem. If you swap the trim solenoids (small black boxes) and the trim works in the opposite direction but not in the original direction one of the solenoids is shot and can be replaced for about $8.
Sugo
 
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