1989 A model 125 FORCE OUTBOARD

[maxum247]

1989 Force Outboard 125hp C model. Purchased new by first owner. Used lightly the first three years, ran fine. Sat with gas in carbs and tank from about 1992 until about 2005. Drained and cleaned tank, replaced all fuel lines,new fuel pump rebuild, cleaned and rebuilt carbs, oiled all cylinders before attemting to start, decarbed and put in new plugs the right ones for that year, checked and double checked, complete water pump replace, rectifier new, stator new. Pretty much replaced everything that I thought might have to do with the problem I'm having, no change, misses at idle to half throttle, after half throttle runs like new, slow back down to half throttle starts missing again. Idles though and starts pretty good. Haven't replaced the coils, they are the blue ones. I feel one of the coils might be the problem, but have gone around in circles and spent my limit if you will. Pumps water fine, even replaced the thermostat just to be on the safe side. Carbs seem to be ok, don,t seem to overflow,even tried different carbs to see if any difference, worked better with the original, ones I tried had problems. It seems to be good on gas, this makes me think the carbs are alright. Could the rings be stuck? Put two stroke oil in all cycliners and let it set a month before turning engine over.
Also was wondering if the blue coils are still available, can't seem to find them, and have read that if changed to black, should be done in pairs, back to the dollars. Thanks, in advance for any advice. maxum247

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 1989 A model 125 FORCE OUTBOARD

These engines are notorious for fouling the surface gap plugs. Fouled plugs will start and run, and the nature of the ignition system is that it produces a hotter spark at higher RPM, so fouled plugs which are marginal at low RPM could run very well at high speeds. So, before you do anything else, clean the new plugs you put in. I use a green scrubee pad and work it into the gap with my thumbnail.

I know you said you cleaned the carbs, but humor me--Next, be certain that the low speed needles are about 1 turn out from lightly closed and run a pipe cleaner or very thin wire and WD 40 up the thin brass tube. Lean running causes these engines to miss. Up to about 1/2 throttle, not enough air is passing through the venturi for it to suck up and atomize gasoline. So, until 1/2 throttle is passed, all fuel is delivered by the low speed circuit. At higher speeds the main venturi now atomizes gas and the engine runs fine. If you do not seem to have any adjustment on the low speed needle--no reaction when you turn it-- there will be a clog in the low speed circuit yet. Spray WD up the small brass tube and into the small holes above the butterfly. Also remove the low speed needle and spray it in there. WD cleans varnish almost immediately.

If that doesn't help, then start looking at ignition. A bad component can be carried by the other three cylinders at higher RPM but will show up at lower RPM. It is still missing, you just don't hear or feel it at the higher speeds.

Check the coil wires for fraying or cuts that may short, check the plug ceramic for carbon tracks or oil residue that could short. Run it at night to look for arcing. Check for loose wires and poor grounds also.

Check under the flywheel to be sure that none of the trigger wires are broken or frayed--but this and almost any electrical problem would show up as power loss at higher speeds. you said that engine runs like new at high speeds so my primary focus at this point would be fuel delivery.

 

[maxum247]

Re: 1989 A model 125 FORCE OUTBOARD

Been over everything twice to three times, everything done as mentioned, and even changed the plugs twice to be sure. No sparks at night, no wire problems that I can find. Except.
One of the coil wires will rotate quite a bit in the coil, but doesn't pull free, could this cause the same problem?

 

[ship5182]

Re: 1989 A model 125 FORCE OUTBOARD

I have a 1989 Force 150 that acts similer. Rough idle at times up to higher rpms then smooths out.* I run the oil to gas ratio at about 45 to 1 instead of the 50 to 1 recomended just to be safe on lubrication, but I have to clean the plugs after every trip due to fouling. After reading a lot of post on this websight I believe these engines run dirty and these are common problems, but they are rugged and dependable if cared for. I recomend you find the post titled "Should I by Force" posted several months ago in this section, there is a lot of good information in the replies to that post. Also check the post about adding a tell-tale. A simple project to verify the water pump is working.

Best Wishs

 

[Scaaty]

Re: 1989 A model 125 FORCE OUTBOARD

Could be the old dreaded Stator/Power pack problem (had mine go bad on my 88 125).
You need to start doing a little detective work.
Get a timing light. Start cranking it and see where or not you are getting spark, then start with a known good plug, then flipping a coil or 2. Nothing changes, flip the power packs. Then post what ya are getting.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 1989 A model 125 FORCE OUTBOARD

I have seen coils on really older engines (not Force) where the wire actually screwed into the coils of the magneto. This is not one of those coils. The wire is permanently installed during manufacture. It should NOT be loose at all.This makes me very suspect of it. See if you can borrow a good coil to check it.

That would be the first thing to check, but at this point, given your reply, I agree with Scaaty: You are going to need to do some detective work on the complete ignition system.

 

[maxum247]

Re: 1989 A model 125 FORCE OUTBOARD

Think I'm going to look into the low speed fuel area one more time. Going to get a spark tester that goes between the sparkplug and plug wire so I can see the spark clearer. Looked like a lineman for the power company out there with the screwdriver and the big gloves. The coil has been on my mind for a long time, but have had trouble locating one of the blue ones like came on my engine. With the help here, I feel that I may find the problem between the low speed fuel circuit and the coil. I've pretty much replaced or tryed everything else except the timing light, which I didn't have and coils. I run my fuel a little rich, better fowled than frozen! Thanks for all your help.

 

[DJ]

Re: 1989 A model 125 FORCE OUTBOARD

The inductive timing light is a great tool for finding electrical misfires.

You do not need to run that engine any richer than 50:1. 50:1 is more than adequate. Any richer and you make a dirty engine run even dirtier.

 

[maxum247]

Re: 1989 A model 125 FORCE OUTBOARD

Don't know much about timing lights, I know that they were used to set the timing to a certain degree so the engine would run right. I had a couple of hot rod cars, back in the eighties, but I used to set the timing by ear. I was into the body work part of it, you know the looks, never got into the mechanics to much. Just the basic stuff. So anyway it's a flashing light, wondering how the miss shows. can you help me out, think I;m going to need to learn how to use one with this engine.

 

[Scaaty]

Re: 1989 A model 125 FORCE OUTBOARD

Don't know much about timing lights, I know that they were used to set the timing to a certain degree so the engine would run right. I had a couple of hot rod cars, back in the eighties, but I used to set the timing by ear. I was into the body work part of it, you know the looks, never got into the mechanics to much. Just the basic stuff. So anyway it's a flashing light, wondering how the miss shows. can you help me out, think I;m going to need to learn how to use one with this engine.

The miss is simple. If an inductive timing light clip (other 2 wires go Pos/Neg on a 12v Batt) is on a plug wire (any wire), and squezzing the trigger while cranking shows no light, you are getting no juice through the wire (attached to the plug, and plug grounded..like screwed in)

I myself don't care much for the cheapo inline spark checkers...(I just use my old cheap timing light for that anyway..I have a good digital light for actual timing of motors).

That said, you will be checking for spark with it..zero timing involved. Just hook it up to a battery, and clip in inductive part around the top wire, crank a few revolutions, then the second wire, etc. You are just looking for the flash. Leave all the plugs in and wires on.
Any non firing plug, then switch the coils off the same powerpack (the whole coil, not just the plug wires) with the non firing one, BUT stick with the same power pack. You have 2 PP's. One runs the top 2 jugs, other bottom 2.
If the non sparker moves with the coil, thats the junk one. If it stays the same, it could be the power pack. Leave the coils alone, and now you can switch the power packs, and try it again. Its just a bunch of trial and error. Make sure you disconnect the battery when ya start sticking screwdrivers in there.
I'd start there first before moving to the carbs. Cheap timing lights at Harbor Freight..
On the blue/black coils, I really don't know if they are mix and match or not. Frank might know more.

 

[maxum247]

Re: 1989 A model 125 FORCE OUTBOARD

The miss is simple. If an inductive timing light clip (other 2 wires go Pos/Neg on a 12v Batt) is on a plug wire (any wire), and squezzing the trigger while cranking shows no light, you are getting no juice through the wire (attached to the plug, and plug grounded..like screwed in)

I myself don't care much for the cheapo inline spark checkers...(I just use my old cheap timing light for that anyway..I have a good digital light for actual timing of motors).

That said, you will be checking for spark with it..zero timing involved. Just hook it up to a battery, and clip in inductive part around the top wire, crank a few revolutions, then the second wire, etc. You are just looking for the flash. Leave all the plugs in and wires on.
Any non firing plug, then switch the coils off the same powerpack (the whole coil, not just the plug wires) with the non firing one, BUT stick with the same power pack. You have 2 PP's. One runs the top 2 jugs, other bottom 2.
If the non sparker moves with the coil, thats the junk one. If it stays the same, it could be the power pack. Leave the coils alone, and now you can switch the power packs, and try it again. Its just a bunch of trial and error. Make sure you disconnect the battery when ya start sticking screwdrivers in there.
I'd start there first before moving to the carbs. Cheap timing lights at Harbor Freight..
On the blue/black coils, I really don't know if they are mix and match or not. Frank might know more.

This is good stuff, like Peanut Butter and Jelly.

 

[Scaaty]

Re: 1989 A model 125 FORCE OUTBOARD

But there ain't nothing as good as peanut butter and chocolate! Damn, love those Reese's PB cups!!!