1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

[john from md]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Putting new electrical or electronic parts does not guarantee that they will last any longer. CDI modules usually go bad from people testing the engine without grounding the coil leads or from a short circuit due to chaffing wires such as you have found.

Considering the cost of the module, I would only replace it once you verify it is bad. Do you have plugs for the module connections or are yours routed to the terminal board? If you have plugs, clean them real good and tie them together with a tie wrap. Any high resistance from the stator to the coil can give you a poor spark.

John

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Putting new electrical or electronic parts does not guarantee that they will last any longer. CDI modules usually go bad from people testing the engine without grounding the coil leads or from a short circuit due to chaffing wires such as you have found.

Considering the cost of the module, I would only replace it once you verify it is bad. Do you have plugs for the module connections or are yours routed to the terminal board? If you have plugs, clean them real good and tie them together with a tie wrap. Any high resistance from the stator to the coil can give you a poor spark.

John

John
There are four clip connections, two going from each ignition module to each coil. All other connections are at the terminal board. Whenever I switched the coils, I switched them at the clips and then swapped the plug wires around (to keep the same firing order).
-Mark

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

I think you are a bit over-optimistic. Overboring .030 will only give about 1-2 cubic inches and the engine won't even notice it. It is not the same as overboring a big detroit V8.

Secondly, every owner I know tells me his boat goes "about 40"--seems to be a magic number.

HOWEVER: Since you did rebuild the engine, and since you can get power by changing timing, are you certain the flywheel is set in the correct position? It is easy to let the key slip when putting on the flywheel and then, it will be at the wrong spot at TDC--necessitating a change in timing. If you did not torque the nut to 95 Foot pounds, the key may have sheared.

Using a probe in the top plug hole, fish for TDC and see that the timing mark on the flywheel is correct. If not, remove the flywheel, find the key or buy a new one, replace the flywheel and torque down to 95 foot pounds.

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

I think you are a bit over-optimistic. Overboring .030 will only give about 1-2 cubic inches and the engine won't even notice it. It is not the same as overboring a big detroit V8.

Secondly, every owner I know tells me his boat goes "about 40"--seems to be a magic number.

HOWEVER: Since you did rebuild the engine, and since you can get power by changing timing, are you certain the flywheel is set in the correct position? It is easy to let the key slip when putting on the flywheel and then, it will be at the wrong spot at TDC--necessitating a change in timing. If you did not torque the nut to 95 Foot pounds, the key may have sheared.

Using a probe in the top plug hole, fish for TDC and see that the timing mark on the flywheel is correct. If not, remove the flywheel, find the key or buy a new one, replace the flywheel and torque down to 95 foot pounds.

I'll double check TDC today just to make sure. Just curious though, if that were the case wouldn't I be able to just advance the timing and leave it there and not get the severe engine knock during throttle down?

Just a thought,

Thanks,
Mark

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Hello again, I checked TDC today and it was right on so that is definitely not the problem. I just wanted to update you.

Thanks again for the input, it is very much appreciated considering I ran out of things to check on my own!!

-Mark

 

[shytownborn]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

what kind or reeds did you put in, the reason i ask is i did a complete rebuild on a 125 hp, after the break in i would only get 4200 rpm, with idle mix screw set at 1 1/6, ran well, idled well but slow to accelerate, i put in boysen reeds after playing around with everything checking timing and all, still the same, frustration set in and turned idle mix screw to 2 1/6 out and now it runs like a scalded dog, 5400 rpm, 39 to 41 mph depending on lake conditions

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

John,
After checking TDC I individually checked each of the four clip connections going to each coil; after each connection was checked, I started the motor and observed the spark for a variation. There was no change. Next move, the ignition swap. I proceeded to group the wires going to the terminal board with electrical tape for easy re-installation. I then made the necessary changes in the connections to allocate the following change: (1to3, 3to1, 2to4, 4to2). After making the appropriate connections on the terminal board I then made the necessary changes to the corresponding coils to assure correct firing order. To finnish I re-installed the component rack. I fired up the motor (by this time it was almost dark so spark visibility was excellent). It fired right up first try (as always) and this is what I observed:

(REMINDER TO ALL)​

(1 used to be 3 --- 2 used to be 4 & vice-versa)​

Cylinder 1 Bright and alive PURPLE at idle and High RPM

Cylinder 2 Dull and weak ORANGE at idle Bright and alive at high RPM... BUT! at a certain RPM (between 1100 RPM and 1500 RPM),this particular RPM there was nothing, no spark, dead for that second during that RPM

Cylinder 3 Bright and Alive ORANGE at idle and high RPM

Cylinder 4 Bright and Alive ORANGE at idle and high RPM

With this information stated, I now have only one bright purple spark and three orange, one that was orange before on coil number 4, which is now on coil number 2, is the worse one. Coil Number 1 is purple, which used to be orange whenever it was coil number 3. Coil number 3 should theoretically be purple. Coil number 1 should theoretically be orange. Coil number 4 should theoretically be purple.
Well, my theory anyways!

That was a VERY interesting conclusion!

Please let me know what you think, or if I just looked TOO FAR into this information!!! )

Thanks!
-Mark

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

---

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

what kind or reeds did you put in, the reason i ask is i did a complete rebuild on a 125 hp, after the break in i would only get 4200 rpm, with idle mix screw set at 1 1/6, ran well, idled well but slow to accelerate, i put in boysen reeds after playing around with everything checking timing and all, still the same, frustration set in and turned idle mix screw to 2 1/6 out and now it runs like a scalded dog, 5400 rpm, 39 to 41 mph depending on lake conditions

This is very interesting. I also installed Boyesen Reeds. Did you time your motor to specification or by ear? Maybe if I set the timing back to where I get more power and speed, and then turn out the idle/mix screw to about where you have yours set, that might get rid of the engine knock during throttle down...? Do you ever experience any loud engine rattle/knock or excessive RPM during throttle down?

Thanks a lot for the reply and information, please let me know what you think of that idea.

-Mark

 

[shytownborn]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

i timed my motor, static 28 degrees to get 30 btdc, and i did get some noise on throttle down not bad tho, but some, by adjusting to about 2 1/6th out it changed everything as to the performance of the motor, a hole shot from hell, planes in seconds were as before just a slow acceleration to 4200 rpm. bored mine out.40, whole new fuel system,check valves diaphram, stator, boysen reeds, now it runs like i want, next project to rebuild my 140 chrysler

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Upon re-reading your original post, it occurred to me that you never said that you synchronized timing and carb opening--you also said that the two hash marks on the throttle cam are centered on the carb roller. Typically, this is just the starting point and they will not be there when the engine is fully set-up.

SO: Try setting the timing to 30 degrees advanced at full throttle (make sure you are getting full timing advance from the control box--be certain the plastic limit button is hard against the block). NOW, set the carb ball link to give full opening at the throttle plates--substantially horizontal. NOTE that when returned to neutral, the marks on the cam may not be centered on the roller--this is correct. Now, set the idle speed with the limit screw. Note that timing at idle may be anywhere from -2 to +2 degrees however, it is usually closer to +2 and the carb butterflies will be just cracked open.

Also note that when changing from lower to higher pitched props, the idle speed limit screw will need adjustment because the additional load of the higher pitch will slow the idle. Correct idle speed will be 750 RPM in forward gear in the water.

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Upon re-reading your original post, it occurred to me that you never said that you synchronized timing and carb opening--you also said that the two hash marks on the throttle cam are centered on the carb roller. Typically, this is just the starting point and they will not be there when the engine is fully set-up.

SO: Try setting the timing to 30 degrees advanced at full throttle (make sure you are getting full timing advance from the control box--be certain the plastic limit button is hard against the block). NOW, set the carb ball link to give full opening at the throttle plates--substantially horizontal. NOTE that when returned to neutral, the marks on the cam may not be centered on the roller--this is correct. Now, set the idle speed with the limit screw. Note that timing at idle may be anywhere from -2 to +2 degrees however, it is usually closer to +2 and the carb butterflies will be just cracked open.

Also note that when changing from lower to higher pitched props, the idle speed limit screw will need adjustment because the additional load of the higher pitch will slow the idle. Correct idle speed will be 750 RPM in forward gear in the water.

I originally synchronized everything they way you explained (Clymer?s) and my end result was with the 2 hash marks on the center of the roller. I always balanced my adjustments so the hash marks stayed on center. I didn?t know that they were supposed to be set any differently. I will double check all settings today, after switching back the CDI modules, (weather permitting) and give you an update. If everything looks like it is adjusted properly do you think I should just leave it alone? I?m still curious what John thinks about the experimental swap of electrical components so I would like to get his input too before I start doing too much at the same time.
Thanks!
-Mark

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Frank,

After work today I set everything back to the way it was on the electrical system. I am now getting a consistent weak spark from cylinder 4. (on/off, Orange color) and still only one cylinder is purple. I think I may have opened up another can of worms..., but I'll come back to that. After playing with the CDI modules, I removed the carburetor covers and put the boat in WOT. I was amazed to find that the butterflies were not completely open at WOT. (even though I set them initially weeks ago) somewhere along the way, while maintaining my center mark on the roller, I must have reduced the open capacity. I re-set to the correct adjustment and took it out despite the weak spark on #4. It seems like it wants to go but I can definitely tell that there is a misfire now. Plus it will not rev past 4000RPM. Again I ran out of daylight so this was all I could get done. Do you think I should get a new stator and 2 CDI modules? I now know for certain that the coils are fine and if the trigger was bad, it would not work at all, which leaves me with CDI modules or stator... I DID NOT GET A CHANCE TO RE-TIME THE MOTOR TODAY. Would this make the appearance of the spark weak and orange colored?

Thanks
-Mark

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

I decided just to get all new electrical components. I'm not really sure what else to do. Everything should be in on Tuesday. I'll start with the stator and the trigger (SINCE I HAVE TO PULL THE FLYWHEEL), if that does the trick, I will probably sell off the remaining new parts I bought. If it doesn't help, I'll keep installing until I have great spark across all 4 cylinders.

I'll post an update after I install!

-Mark

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Okay. I'm going to make a long story short. I installed my new parts and it's running the same.

Goodbye.

lol

I couldn't do that to you guys!

I installed the the new, well high quality used parts I got from a marina. stator, trigger two CDIs and 4 coils. I got a steal of a deal for everything so I installed it all. I am now getting a consistent orange-pink/almost-purple color across all 4 cylinders. ONE of them has a very slight hint of blue to it, which I have never seen before. Number 4 which WAS weak, is no longer weak, which is good. So i guess I am getting good spark? What color should they be?

Then - I made sure everything was synchronized properly, (carbs, timing link, WOT/fully opened). EVERYTHING IS PERFECT.

Finally, on the water at WOT I checked the timing and set it accordingly (stopping and turning off the motor during adjustments).

I am still stuck at 4300-4400RPM 23-24MPH

Boat starts fine, idles fine BUT it does not seem like it maxes out as fast as it should?

I think it may be easier to remove the four bolts which hold the motor to the transom, take a pair of angle cutters to the main wire harness and throttle cables, remove the nuts that secure the steering assembly together, life up on the motor and PUSH.

TRUMPET (WAH WAH WAH WAHHHHHHHH)

I not really sure where to go from here.

 

[john from md]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Mark,

How high is the altitude in PA where you run?

Have you ever had the boat weighed?

John

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Mark,

How high is the altitude in PA where you run?

Have you ever had the boat weighed?

John

John,

Altitude: 234m / 770ft

I Never had the boat weighed.

-Mark

 

[john from md]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Well, the altitude is not a factor.

You should consider getting it weighed to see if it is waterlogged. If the foam under the floor is holding water, the extra weight will not allow you to achieve full performance.

Scales are located in junkyards, boatyards, recycling centers, truck stops etc. Sometimes you can get them to weigh it for nothing.

John

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Well, the altitude is not a factor.

You should consider getting it weighed to see if it is waterlogged. If the foam under the floor is holding water, the extra weight will not allow you to achieve full performance.

Scales are located in junkyards, boatyards, recycling centers, truck stops etc. Sometimes you can get them to weigh it for nothing.

John

I get more power if I advance timing though.

I'll see what I can do about getting it weighed.

Thanks,
Mark

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Actually, the whole boat was completely stripped down last year. EVERYTHING, including the wooden floor was replaced. The boat was sanded down and painted with special paint.

This boat is a brand new 1989!

I currently dock on the river and I have NO water in the bottom of the boat. My bildge never even has to turn on. I'm really not sure if we can go by this, but visually, there is no water in the boat.

Check out the pictures!