1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed - UPDATE 07-18-08

Nemesis98

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Ok, I finally installed the new standard size piston and rings in cylinder #3. It went in tight, but it went in. The piston itself was able to slid in and wiggle a bit without the rings, but with the rings it's tight. Everything is put back together, well oiled cylinder, plugs are out so I can just turn the motor over without starting..I turned the key, and.....nothing. The starter engages the flywheel, and is able to jiggle it a small bit, but it will not crank over. Is that new piston too darn tight in the cylinder preventing it from turning over? How can I fix this without taking everything apart again and starting over? I really don't want to do that....

Thanks!
 

jerryjerry05

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Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

Did you measure end gap on the rings? 002 (2thousands) Jerry
 

Nemesis98

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Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

I thought I had everything all set - things seemed to be in spec. But I guess not. Now it won't turn over. So what are my options? I know I can tear it all apart again, but I would rather find another option.
 

Frank Acampora

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Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

Well, Just for next time--Before you install the rings in the piston, insert them one at a time into the cylinder and use the skirt of the piston to push them down about halfway to the exhaust ports. This squares them in the bore for accuracy. Then measure the end gap with a feeler. Factory claims .006 to.016 but I have NEVER had a set that tight--even brand new, always a bit more. Guess I am lucky.

Anyway, if they are too tight, file the ends a bit.

Since there is always a bit of a land or ridge at the top (where the rings don't rub during operation) I suspect that if you did not hone the cylinder and were able to get the rings in, then they are not too tight. You did lubricate both the whole cylinder and entire piston and the rings with oil before inserting it, didn't you?

Squirt some oil into each cylinder and turn over the engine by hand, feeling for binding. With no plugs, it should turn smoothly and with little enough resistance that you can turn it rather quickly and feel the crankcase compression as the piston moves down.

I don't remember--Did you disassemble the engine to put in the piston or did you go through the reed opening? And did you make absolutely certain that the rod end cap was on the correct way AND the flats in the sides were perfectly aligned? Because, the big end of the rod is so tight between the crank cheeks, that if you put the cap on wrong, not only will the rollers and crank pin wear quickly but the rod will jam between the cheeks making it very difficult to turn over the engine.

If you did disassemble the engine, are you certain that the lower and the two center bearings were fully seated on their pins AND were the crankcase seals (look like miniature piston rings) fully seated in their grooves on the crankshaft? Either condition will bind up the engine to the point where it almost will not move.

If all this is correct, then you need to start checking power to the starter motor.
 

Nemesis98

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Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

I don't remember--Did you disassemble the engine to put in the piston or did you go through the reed opening? And did you make absolutely certain that the rod end cap was on the correct way AND the flats in the sides were perfectly aligned? Because, the big end of the rod is so tight between the crank cheeks, that if you put the cap on wrong, not only will the rollers and crank pin wear quickly but the rod will jam between the cheeks making it very difficult to turn over the engine.

This might be it! I did not disassemble the engine, and went thru the opening (what a pain!) Anyways, once the piston was in, and when the rod end met up with the crank cheeks, it got tight and hard to move. I had to tap the piston in until it reached the end so I could put the end cap on. So with the rod end being tight in the crank cheeks, AND the ro end cap on the wrong way, it could be the reason I cannot even budge the motor. It' slike the engine i seized, but I know it's not. Before installing the piston, I was able to move the flywheel and the other two pistons moved nice and smooth.

the flats in the sides were perfectly aligned? What do you mean by this?
 

CharlieB

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Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

Pistoon rings are located on the piston and kept from rotating freely by a ring locating pin that is pressed into the piston within the ring land. The rings MUST BE installed oriented so that the riing end gap straddles this locating pin. If the ring is not installed it will be very difficult to insert the piston and ring into the cylinder, doing so will 'press' the pin further into the piston making the piston no longer serviceable.

Replace the piston AND the rings.
 

Nemesis98

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Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

When I installed, I am pretty sure that the rings were where that should have been, at those pins. But it is VERY possible that the rotated and are not lined up. (Had a heck of a time with my ring compressor - the rings would either pop out or the tool would loosen and slide off. Should I be using a 2.5" - 5" compressor tool instead of the 3.5" - 7" one that I have?)

Anyways, I removed everything again so I can get to the end cap. Removed, flipped it over, re-installed. Still the same problem. It will not budge. So I removed it completely as well as the other cage and needles, and now I am able to move the flywheel about a few inches or so in either direction, but thats it. The other two pistons move when I do that, but number 3 doesn't budge. The crank cheeks hit the bottom of the piston when it moves in each direction, which is why it will not turn over.

So,

1.) How can I get that jammed piston out without damaging the piston or the cylinder (at least not bad enough that I'm out a piston and need to re-bore the cylinder)?

Thanks!
 

Frank Acampora

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Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

You can take a hardwood dowel or a block of wood and through the reed opening either tap the end of the rod or if you can actually get it back into the piston, tap the piston. May take a bit of persuasion and the wood may split but it will go--after all, you got it in, didn't you?

I don't like to use a ring compressor. Sometimes I will compress the rings with a nylon zip tie and other times I just use a flat blade screwdriver. With both rings installed on the pistom, slide it into the bore until the first ring touches the top of the block. Now, put one end of the ring at the pin and while pressing in on the piston with one hand, work around the ring with the flat screwdriver pushing it in. Takes a knack, and a little more time than a compressor, but you will quickly learn how much pressure to put on the piston to hold the ring and how to work around it with the screwdriver. Once the ring pops into the bore, do the same for the top ring. ---And before you ask, no, it doesn't damage or scratch the ring. A bit messy on the hands, but DAWN gets the oil off nicely.

I can do this with flat rings, 2 deg. semi tapered like supplied with WISECO and semi keystone rings. Each type takes a little different feel but the beauty is that you are absolutely certain that the rings are properly positioned on the locating pins.

NOW once you have the piston out, look at the big end of the rod. On each side you will see a ground and polished flat. If you look closely you will also see at the split a VEE shaped notch.

These rods are the outer bearing of the crankpin/roller/rod assembly. They are called "Cracked Cap Technology." They are manufactured as one piece. Then the flats are ground on the outside for reference points. After fully hardening the rod, (which makes it a bit brittle) the VEE is "Staked" and the rod splits relatively cleanly. However, each side splits a little differently. Thus, the rod cap only fits one way.

When you reassemble the rod, logic says that if the reference flats are smoothly mated at the crack, then the inside of the rod where the rollers ride must also be smooth at the crack. Thus the rollers will ride over the crack without bouncing. You check for smoothness by running a pencil point, scribe, piece of wire, or welding rod over the joint. And as I have said in the past--This is one case where good enough is not good enough. You must be fussy, critical, and perfect. Even though the crack is on the side where there is not much load, if the rollers bounce, they will hammer it and they will begin to spall and eventually (rather quickly) fail, ruining both the rod and the crank.---Very expensive.

NOW: If you have assembled the rod with incorrect alignment and then torqued the cap bolts, the mated ends will be messed up and may not properly align. This ruins the rod. That is why I always tell people to only hand tighten the cap bolts until the rod cap is perfectly aligned.

SO: While you have the piston out, examine both sides of the rod big end and try to mate the cap to it. If it does, you are OK. However, if it will not mate properly, then you need to buy a good rod.

And that, is the lesson on engine rebuilding for today!
 

Nemesis98

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Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

I managed to get the piston out (seemed easier to do than when i put it in!). Now to take my time and check everything to be sure that I don't have to do this again. Once I size up the rings in the bore, and adjust as necessary, install them on the piston (at the correct spot end on the pins) and be sure to check that the rod end cap is matching up correctly, things should work out.
 

Nemesis98

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Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed - NOW WHAT?

Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed - NOW WHAT?

I was able to install the piston with ease this time, and doing so I took a good look at the rod end cap, sure enough, it fits only one way - Great info there! Thanks!!

I am able to turn over the motor now...is there anything else that needs to be done to actually start the thing up again? There is an aweful lot of oil/W-D 40/PB Blaster etc from when I removed the damaged piston that's probably still hanging around the engine somewhere. Just crank it up and see what happens? Or is there a flush or something I should do first?
 

Frank Acampora

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Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed, but NEED HELP

With lots of assembly oil in it it may just take a good number of tries to start. But then again, it may decide to start on the first crank. It has gone both ways for me. --Just make sure you have a fully charged battery in case it decides to be cranky--no pun intended.

It is my personal opinion that oil that has been heated in the engine seems to have a higher viscosity and lubricity than fresh TCW-3. Thus I believe that assembly oil does not give the same lubrication as already run TCW-3.

For that reason, when I rebuild an engine or even replace one piston, I run at least one 6 gallon tank of double oil--1 quart to 6 gallons-- and take it a bit easy on the engine (3/4 throttle or so) until that oil has had a chance to flush out assembly oil and coat all parts.

Then, check and re-clean the plugs.
 

Nemesis98

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Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed - UPDATE

Re: 1989 Force 85 - new piston/rings installed - UPDATE

Ok, So everything is set, turned the key - and VROOM, it started up (after some cranking over). BUT, the problem is the motor will start only when in Neutral at WOT. Starting in neutral at any other throttle postion just doesn't do it. And when it does start, at WOT, it is only running at idle speed. And when I move throttle down, it stalls. That is problem number one.

Problem number two, I noticed that there is fuel dripping from the carburators. Not sure why.....??

Now, I haven't adjusted anything, just slapped everything together and started it up. And, I know very little about what to adjust if that's necessary.

Thanks!
 
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