1990 90-hp bogging down after carb rebuild and re-rebuild!

mitchbuck

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So I ordered a fly wheel key and it should be here tomorrow. In the meantime a thought occurred to me and I checked Top Dead Center timing on the fly wheel by removing the spark plug using a screw driver to find it. Well I found that TDC is lined up with the '0' mark! So is it possible the key is sheared in a way that TDC is lined up at 0 degrees but not at full throttle? My uncle thinks that the CDI/powerpack has gone bad, which means I wouldn't have to remove the fly wheel. So before I pull the fly wheel I wanted to see what you all thought?
 

pnwboat

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If #1 piston is at TDC and the mark on the flywheel is at 0°, then the flywheel key is not sheared. More likely your trigger wire(s) or connection between the CD module and coil are mixed up.
 

Jiggz

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Ditto on PNW's assessment. Re-verify TDC again and then verify timing again. If it is 120 degree off then it means your trigger wires or plug coil wires are mixed up.
 

mitchbuck

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The thing is I never touched trigger wires or plug coils so I don't know how they would get 'mixed up'. The only thing I can think of is the either the coils or powerpacks/CDIs are going bad or have a bad wire/connection? Or maybe the spark plug wires are getting shotty and arching? I'm going to read up in clymers and test electrical systems......ugh!
 

Jiggz

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Re-verify timing again and take note how many degrees it is off. That alone can indicate where the problem mostly lies. You said it was way off, but approximately how many degrees?
 

mitchbuck

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Looking from the top of the fly wheel and thinking of the fly wheel as a clock where 12 is where 0 degrees at TDC should be, the 32 degree mark on the fly wheel was at 3 o'clock when full throttle was engaged.
 
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Jiggz

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If you referenced the flywheel to that of a clock face, 3 o'clock will be 90 degrees while 6 o'clock will be 180 degrees. Each number on the clock face is 30 degrees (12 X 30 degrees = 360 degrees). So for a 32 degree setting it is just a hairline over the 1 o'clock position. The proper way to mark the 28, 30 and 32 degree setting is to measure the circumference of the flywheel.

For example, my flywheel measures 30 inches in circumference. Dividing this by 360 degrees results in 0.0833 inch per degree. To compute for the 28 degree mark, multiply 0.0833 by 28 degrees = 2.332 inches which is equal to approx 2 5/16 inches. The 30 degree mark will be at 2.499 or approx 2.5 inches which is equal to 2 8/16 inches and for the 32 degree mark it will be at 2 10/16 or 2 5/8 inches.
 

mitchbuck

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Thanks Jiggz. The timing is off 90 degrees then. So could my uncle be right and its the ignition system (CDIs, Coils, etc)? I've been studying how to test it in the Clymer manual but its a tough read....
 
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Jiggz

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I understand you already verified the TDC with the #1 cylinder and is validated to be correctly marked on the flywheel. Usually, on the left of the TDC mark (facing the marking itself on the flywheel) on the flywheel, there will be permanently scribed markings for the 28, 30 and 32 degree timing mark. Some will only have two markings, i.e. 28 and 30 degree marks or maybe just one, which is usually the 28 degree mark. I'm surmising you do have at least one or two of these timing marks on your flywheel. If you do not have any of these marking, then you need to compute it as explained above and do the scribing yourself. The original timing marks placed by the manufacturer were stick on decals that never lasted with the engines and most if not all are already gone.

If it is 90 degree off, it cannot be a switched coil or wire, since the motor is 3 cylinders meaning the firing sequence is 120 degrees apart. UNLESS, WHAT YOU ARE TELLING ME IS THE NET difference in timing meaning it is actually 120 degrees off but subtracting the required 30 degree advance BTDC (28 static) that makes it 90 degree. then in this case it could be a switched coil or trigger wires.

Double check the coil plugs and trigger wires using schematic diagram and then do the timing test again and set the timing to the 28 degree mark. If you do not know how to do this, there is a sticky post on top of the forum with a video to show you how. It is important to set this properly now before continuing on with the troubleshooting if the problem persists thereafter.
 
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pnwboat

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I was re-reading your symptoms from the first posting. Something strange going on here. Are you saying that the motor starts and idles fine, but just won't get up on plane? If the timing is off by 90 degrees, or 120 degrees, I don't think the motor would start. Are you sure you're putting the timing light pick up on #1 coil wire? #1 coil should be the upper most coil. Make sure the pick up is far enough away from #2 and #3 coil wires so it isn't pick up the spark signal from them. I am assuming that you have the Prestolite ignition system with the sky blue coils and CD modules. Just want to double check.
 

mitchbuck

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Sorry If my explanations are confusing, and I will try to be more clear! The problem is the engine idles fine but won't get up on plane (throttle plates on carbs are completely horizontal too).

1) Last year I verified that the timing was correct by checking the 28/30/32 marks at full throttle using a timing gun.
2) Last week when I checked timing at full throttle I could not see the 28/30/32 marks from the mark on the block. In order to find the 28/30/32 marks on the flywheel I had to point the timing gun at the starboard side of the fly wheel (3 O'clock postion), which would indicate that the timing at full throttle is 90 degrees off. Doing some simple math and adding 90 degrees to 28/30/32 degrees would mean that the timing at full throttle is set to roughly ~120 degrees.
3) The pickup for the timing gun was place on coil #1(top) and I made sure it wasn't touching other coil wires, but maybe my I was still getting interference?
4) I then verified that TDC on #1 (top) cylinder is correct since the 0 degree mark on fly wheel lines up with mark on the block.
5) I have the prestolite (blue) ignition.

So if my timing is set to ~120 degrees at full throttle, is this something that can even be adjusted (i.e. does the screw have enough threads even?) My buddy, who is a electrical engineer, and I are going to try to troubleshoot the ignition system to see if there is a problem with it. We will also reverify timing with his timing gun, which is a better one, and I will report back....
 

Jiggz

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There is not enough thread on the timing tower to set the timing to 120 degrees. The timing being off, would only indicate either a plug wire is switched around with another cylinder or the trigger wires. To find out which one, do the timing check again but this time in a modified process. With the engine idling and with the cowl off, connect the timing gun to each one of the plug wires one at a time while aiming at the timing mark on the block and the flywheel. Whichever plug wire shows you the TDC (close to it as the timing at idle is basically around 3~7 degrees BTDC depending on RPM) on the flywheel against the engine block marking is #1 plug wire.
 

pnwboat

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Well this is certainly strange??? I'm surprised that it even starts. I would suspect that the two Blue/Orange and Blue/Red wires on the first CD module that go to #1 and #2 coils are reversed. Blue/Orange goes to #1 coil, Blue/Red goes to #2 coil. Especially if you put the timing light pick up on #2 spark plug wire and timing reads like it was #1, however, it could also be the trigger wires too as Jiggz mentioned. Just a process of elimination.
 

mitchbuck

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The thing is I have never ever touched any of the wires on the ignition system besides the spark plug wires (and they are on the correct cylinders). The engine ran fine last year. So while I don't think the wires are switched, those very wires could be bad or have a bad connection, which I will check.
 

mitchbuck

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So I took the cover off of the powerpack electrical panel tonight and discovered that a single 18-gauge wire had broken. This single wire was 1 of 21 wires that hook up to this panel. I put a new connector on and replaced two other connectors that seemed kinda loose. Instead of checking timing again (as I didn't have a 2nd person), I decided to go for a test drive. Well I got up on a plane no problem!!!!! Hard to believe that a single 18-gauge wire, 1 out of 21, to the powerpack could stop the engine from functioning properly. Scary to think about. Well I thank everyone for contributing especially Jiggz and pnwboat who stuck with me through this thread. I should of done this sooner it would have saved me a lot of time.....well I guess you live and learn! Now its time for a link n sync and getting this engine running at peak performance.....or as good as a 25 yr old outboard gets!
 

Jiggz

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Congrats! I believe the broken wire is one of the trigger wires for the #1 cylinder. It would not surprise me the timing gun was picking up the #2 plug wire instead since #1 was not firing at all. Anyways, enjoy!
 
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