1993 140 Looper, new to me low Rpm roughness, and couple questions.

[rothfm]

I know, another 140 idle/rough running!...I searched alot of posts but still looking for a bit of advice.

Got this motor awhile back from an older guy for 250 bucks, after the usual checks (124psi-all), I did the usual Carb rebuilds, water pump, plugs/wires, filter, Stats etc....

Barrel testing proved it ran decent, so I mounted it on the boat for additional testing.

1) Rough low RPM IDLE TO 2800RPM.

Ive gone over the OEM manual checking Link/Sync items..I dont want to overly mess with this until I get some further advice. Idle, up to about 2800 is rough. Immediately after that it smooths out and runs beautifully. Cyl drop test yeilds all are firing. Squeezing bulb yields same, its not flat. WOT is almost 6k on my tack. . Previously went thru the carbs with wire strands, Berrymans, gummout...and I cleaned the throttle plates.....However did not take out the flat plugs.
I'M HESITANT TO START TURING THE IDLE ADJUSTMENTS JUST YET.


2) TEMPS ARE WAY LOW:

Whether in the barrel or in the water, Seems the water is flowing all the time, not regulated by the Stats at all. The motor never gets warm. Close testing in-water today saw idle temps of 80-95......and after a long run only in the 70's. I actually disable Fast-Start so I could control the warm-up via the remote lever.

I did the stats exactly the way the housings were originally. However in the OEM book (Pic attached), they say to unscrew 2 haves of a cap on thermostat, and show a pic of a pointed "cap" with a spring in it. I'm pretty sure I dont have this. See square #5.


3) Voltage:

at idle is 13.2...With only a few RPM's jumps up to 14.7-14.8. Seems high to me--but had to ask.



Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[boobie]

Your voltage is okay.

 

[rothfm]

Thanks Boobie, only used to crossflows, and mine ran below this level.

Appreciated.

 

[cfauvel]

I suspect plug wires....I recently installed new Sierra blue wires and had exactly the same symptom...the issues is the core material used...the blue wires are something like carbon infused fibreglass....I believe your motor, like mine, need solid copper core, NOT resistance style .

on the water I replaced back my 20+ year old wires and the problem went away...

 

[Bosunsmate]

yep volage is good.
A you saying that you dont have springs?
If you dont it would never get warm and may cold seize.
Post a pix of the parts you have if you have more difficulty

 

[rothfm]

Thanks Bosun....I Put in stats exactly how they were installed. I have to go back and take a look. I'm not familiar yet with Looprs.

The BRP diagram showed a 2nd spring I'm not sure is in there. Now that ive looked at the diagram, I see how they work...the pin rests against the outside cover with the "movement" coming at the other spring toward the inside.

THE wires: I've used Sierra Blue 8mm wires before on crossflows without incident. But ya never know! Will put on the originals I took off and see if theres a difference.

I dont want to start messing with adjustments, as it runs very very well about 2500 or so, and its not a horrible low RPM issue, but not so good for trolling. I did a full Carb kit job including wire probes, cleaning as it should be done. I DIDNT however, take out the plugs in the throttle plates.

I've had some wierd VRO symptoms on other motors and think it may be a possibility....Ive encountered a strange throttle-back stumble, and idle issues and couldnt believe they were resolved by swapping out VRO's with spares...So that is in my sights also.

Thanks all

 

[rothfm]

Ive got several used "spare" vro's around. I may want to tey a temporary swap to see if rough symptom changes.

Is a vro a vro? Meaning any need to worry about compatibility. Im mixing


Thanks

 

[cfauvel]

IF you have a three wire VRO, then a three wire VRO is what you will need (BUT they do make a kit to make it a four wire VRO)....

here is the bible of VRO
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/VRO.html

You'll need to look at the pulse port , the wire count, and whether the ports have an oval metal tang holding the ports on,

or take a photo

the early VRO had no electrical gizmo to count the number of oil pulses per RPM, the second gen had I think a brown top port (glued in) and electrical gizmo (I think these are the three wired ones), then finally the latest version have four wires, a blue anodized pulser, a removable port at the top.

Best to have the BLUE pulser, it limits the pressure to the vro so it doesn't rupture the air pump.

The electrical gizmo tells the warning horn if you have a NO OIL condition.

 

[cfauvel]

Ive got several used "spare" vro's around. I may want to tey a temporary swap to see if rough symptom changes.

Is a vro a vro? Meaning any need to worry about compatibility. Im mixing


Thanks

just re-read your statement....you're pre-mixing? then any VRO will work, be sure to use the BLUE pulser though.....cap off the oil inlet, and disconnect the 3 or 4 wire plug...that's it.

you are just using the VRO as fuel pump.

 

[cfauvel]

Ive got several used "spare" vro's around. I may want to tey a temporary swap to see if rough symptom changes.

Is a vro a vro? Meaning any need to worry about compatibility. Im mixing


Thanks

just re-read your statement....you're pre-mixing? then any VRO will work, be sure to use the BLUE pulser though.....cap off the oil inlet, and disconnect the 3 or 4 wire plug...that's it.

you are just using the VRO as fuel pump.

 

[jakedaawg]

I dont want to start messing with adjustments, as it runs very very well about 2500 or so, and its not a horrible low RPM issue, but not so good for trolling. I did a full Carb kit job including wire probes, cleaning as it should be done. I DIDNT however, take out the plugs in the throttle plates.


Thanks all

These are not the greatest trolling motors in the first place.

 

[jakedaawg]

As far as the VRO goes, and I do not mean to start a VRO thread war here; A modern, well maintained, tested, 4 wire VRO is not a likely culprit with the exception of low pressure....But, but, but the manual gives a spec for pressure, pulses, and vacuum. It should all be part of your seasonal VRO maintenance IMHO. ****if the oil is plugged off you can still do the pressure and restriction tests***

A more likely culprit is the throotle bodies idle air bleed. This is one of the little brass openings you can see facing forward when the air silencer is removed.

Another likely culprit would be OIS.

This is all assuming I read the post right and you are working on a 60* looper.

 

[jakedaawg]

Haha, "throotle bodies"...very rare...you probably have "throttle bodies"...now I am not sure how to even spell that...darn auto correct...sorry, but you get the drift.

 

[flyingscott]

Isn't the 140 looper a 90 deg bg block.

 

[cfauvel]

..... with the exception of low pressure....

I don't think that is his case as he is getting 6000 rpm...if the air pump/fuel pump side were faulty he wouldn't be able to get up to speed.

your other suggestions are sound.

you can 90% rule out stator too, as he is getting 6K rpm....

still suspect plug wires, only if his idle to 2800 sounds like there is a heap load of miss going on (that was my symptom)...I'm guessing that after a certain RPM, the stator/power pack was producing enough juice to overcome the resistance of the wires.

 

[rothfm]

Thanks all

90deg looper, 4 individual carbs.

Im going to first resolve the cooling (too cool) issue, and progress from there.

But im looking at a roughness from idle to 2800, for sake of a description/definition....is that range considered "idle" circuit jets, midrange jets, or some of both?

I thought the idle air bleeds would be just that, idle-and not have affect up to 2800

Just trying to clarify in my mind as i try to methodically troubleshoot the issue

First is getting the thing to actually heat up!

Ive done the full carb rebuild, wire poker, air, spray and removing jets..no difference at all. I DID NOT remove the plug on side of throttle bodys

The idle on each carb is adjustable. Book says to start 2 turns out, im gonna get to that eventually. Just bieng methodical.

Thanks

 

[cfauvel]

agreed step 1 is to get that thing warmed up..

what is the model number of the motor?

 

[rothfm]

Its a VJ140TXETF

Will attach pic later, clean 1 owner (older gentleman) unadulterated motor...grabbed ot for 250 bucks

Seems to push my 20-21 walkaround nicely. A good match

Realizing these are not the best idlers out there, but is significantly "off" up tp 2800.

Opening up stats again this evening.

 

[cfauvel]

I looked at your model number on boatsDOTnet and you appear to have the plastic carbs...there is NO idle mixture screw an any of the carbs.

you have three 'jets', two air bleeds at the surface of the carb and one main hi-speed jet inside the bowl.

I forget which position of the air bleeds equal to what circuit (idle and intermediate)...RacerOne could definitely tell you.

verify that the air bleeds are in the right position

IE the blowout states for Suffix S motors
#34 idle air on port side #37 idle air on Starboard (interesting the two different sizes)
#26 for intermediate
#61 - hi-speed

IE the blowout states for Suffix F motors
#55 idle air (both sides I asusme)
#26 for intermediate
#61 - hi-speed


The air bleed numbers are stamped on the outside so you'll be able to see them.


did you put the old plug wires back on?

 

[rothfm]

Thanks Cfauvel,

Will post some pics and comments if it helps, and for others if they can.

Havent retested with the original OMC wires, but will. I opened the stats tonight, and found some things that is puzzling. Pics below. Couple differences with one part in each side bieng different slightly, and one having a slight tear in the diagrapham.

I'm really really wondering about the different layout in my OEM Manual for this motor, VS the BRP website breakdown. Again, Pics attached below with comments. My OEM manual page states "unscrew haves of thermostat housing and remove thermostat", and has a picture (attached below) These halves contain the actual thermostat apparantly. This is not what I have...Mine truely DOES match the BRP diagram online. Not sure why this discrepancy??

Also, A pic of the front of the Silencer is attached showing the Carb Idle adjustments hole and instruction Decal. There are 4 of them.


Here goes....The pics and comments:



This pic is from my original OMC manual...See both #5 Lines...talks about seperating halves of a housing containing the stat--Not what I have




This is the PIC on that same OEM manual page showing those "halves" around the stat, and a pointed part--again, not what I have--Not sure
why the manual is showing it this way.



Below is the page from the BRP website, parts breakdown, that matches what I have installed (with one exception will note further below)



Some Pics of the stats and components I have:

This View shows Item #49 called a CUP, its metal and a seperate item from the diaphragm.
The Cup holds the outtermost spring that extends from behind the stat cover.

again a pic of the CUP, also showing the small tear on the lip of the diaphragm



NOW, one difference in parts is that one side doesn't have the "CUP" as listed on the BRP breakdown item #49 as a seperate part. This side has a plastic disk as part of the actual diaphragm. It cant be seperated like it was made as one piece.....Unlike the opposite side, and not like the BRP diagram.....2 pics of this item below.
This side has this one-piece diagrapham and plastic center...Doesnt have the #49 Cup like the other side.



Below is the diaphragm from the other side, that doesn't have the above "built-in" plastic ring...But has the seperate #49 Cup as listed in the BRP diagram:



And, a couple pics of the motor just for background:








To Recap:

1) The CUP is present on one side,,,,but on the other side this #49 piece is a plastic ring, built-into the diaphragm---
STRANGE.
2) My OEM manual shows the stat sits inside two little halves that screw together. BRP online diagrams shows it differently,
and it matches my setup.
3) I Have a small tear on one diaphragm(very slight)


I'm yet to mess with those 4 IDLE screw adjustments accessed thru the front Silencer cover.....Until I figure this Cold temperature thing out. It needs to come up to temp first and foremost.



Does anyone care to look at all this and comment?? Very much appreciated. Have vacation coming up and was hoping to get squared away shortly.