1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

[Jiggz]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

Yeah Jiggz, thats the same diagram as in my FSM. It shows all the wiring for the T/T control circuits (i.e., switches), but it doesn't show the wiring that carries power from the battery cables to the T/T relays. That is covered in the diagram I posted above.

Thanks for taking time to help.

Can you post an illustration on how the current relays are wired? I would surmised the control ckt for the relays is already as shown in schematic "to trim relays" with the blue and green wires for up and down control. the other two wires could just be ground wires (brn/wht and tan) for the relays but need to verify first. Unless these two wires (brn/wht and tan) are hot or power wires, then it could the be it is for the load ckt of the relays what actually powers the T&T motor. If they are not hot or powered wire but instead just ground wire for the relays, then the relays load ckt will come straight from the starter solenoid the same terminal where the 20 amp fuse is connected.

 

[HotTommy]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

Jiggz,
To be sure we're on the same page, I'll describe it this way. Each relay has four wires: 1) from the ground located at the starter relay; 2) from the hot side of the starter relay where the battery cable attaches; 3) from the T/T switch to provide power to activate the relay when the switch is pressed; and 4) to the hydraulic pump. My schematic shows a circuit breaker along the wire between the hot side of the starter relay and the T/T (hydraulic pump) relay. The wiring on my engine is just like the schematic EXCEPT there is no circuit breaker.

ALL:
I got all five broken bolts out and retapped the holes. I also picked up some o-rings for the trim cylinder. I noticed that the rod moved by the trim piston had some rough spots on it and didn't move very smoothly. I smoothed it up some. My plan is to put it back together tomorrow and see what else is not working. I've pretty much decided that if the trim cylinder leaks excessively after repair, I'm going to disconnect and cap it's hydraulic lines and shim the rod to a medium setting. This motor is going on a pontoon boat and I suspect the trim setting isn't going to be much of a factor in how it performs.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

Tommy, fully understood your explanation but to go one step further. Each relay has two separate ckts in it. The wire that connects directly from the hot side of the starter solenoid that connects to the T&T motor through a set of contacts (in the relay) is referred to as the load ckt. On the otherhand, this set of contacts are controlled by a separate circuit through a coil which is referred to as control ckt.

The schematic you are referring to that shows a ckt bkr between the hot wire from the starter solenoid and the relays is not specific to your motor but more of a generalized explanation on most T&T wiring, which is very common to prestolite systems. You should already have the below schematic in your FSM which is specific to a prestolite system showing the ckt bkr (circled in red). However, none is showing with regards to your specific motor which is not unusual at all.

 

[HotTommy]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

Thanks. Now I understand your point.

 

[HotTommy]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

Update: One step forward, three steps back

I have reassembled the trim cylinder assembly and run my first test of the hydraulic pump. The good news is that the pump works. The bad news involves the tilt cylinder. .... The PO had disconnected the trim cylinder so I left it disconnected for the test. I added some oil and hot wired the pump to test it with the highly suspect tilt cylinder. I say 'highly suspect" because the PO had placed a hose clamp around the cylinder as close to the top as he could get it. It seemed to me an obvious effort to stem a leak at the top seal. ... Sure enough, when the pump started sending oil to the cylinder, it came gushing from the top of the cylinder. ... The good news, such as it is, is that it appears the cylinder has not been previously removed. I say that because the first step to removing the tilt cylinder is to remove the trim cylinder assembly. As that part appeared to have been previously untouched, I assume the tilt cylinder is virgin too. Hopefully it can be fixed with a few new rubber parts.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

Yes the tilt cylinder is relatively easy to repair if it's just the "O" rings and not the body of the cylinder. I took the tilt cylinder (disassembled) from mine to a shop that repairs hydraulic cylinders. They measured the "O" rings and pistons. It was about $3 for everything. There were 4 "O" rings and they had a $5 minimum charge so it cost me $5. That was like 6 years ago. Been working fine since then.

 

[HotTommy]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

Well, it appears my tilt cylinder was more of a slut than a virgin. While I still think no one had tried to remove it before, it appears that someone tried to fix a leaky o-ring by overtightening the cap on the cylinder. The mysterious hose clamp was a futile attempt to hold the cap in after the treads were damaged. I took pnwboat's suggestion and carried it to a shop that specializes in hydraulic cylinder repair. They concluded the threads were too far gone to hold up under pressure. I'm not excited about spending more for a new cylinder than I did for the rest of the engine, so I'm working through some other ideas. One idea is to search the web for a generic hydraulic cylinder of the right dimensions to replace the original. I'm not optimistic I'll find one. Another idea is to replace the o-rings, screw the cap down as tight as possible and then tack weld the cap to the cylinder in three or four places. Anything more might melt the rubber parts inside. I'm open to other ideas if anyone has them to offer.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

See my private message.

 

[HotTommy]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

With the help of a forum member I have obtained a used tilt cylinder that should be compatible with my motor. The exterior dimensions are the same except for the place where the upper hydraulic fitting attaches. On my motor there is a cast boss with a female opening for the hydraulic line. On the replacement, there is just a small funnel shaped opening in the side of the cylinder. This photo shows them side by side.



I do not recognize the opening on the replacement cylinder and I'm not sure what kind of fitting goes there. Before I show up at the local parts store, I'd like to know what I'm looking for. Can anyone give me a name or description of that fitting?

 

[HotTommy]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

One more question occurs to me. The main problem with the original cylinder is that the threads on the cap are bad. If I could swap caps between the two cylinders, that might be the easiest solution. I've disassembled the cap on the original cylinder (it was held on by a simple nut), I don't see how to disassemble the replacement piston/cap assembly. If I can disassemble it, I'll have to see if the replacement cap fits the piston from the original cylinder. Can anyone offer advice on (1) if this will work, and (2) how to do it?

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

I believe you may need item #23 in the diagram.

Mercury, Mercruiser, Force, etc. - TILT CYLINDER / MOTOR AND PUMP - 150 H.P.

I would think that the replacement cylinder should come apart similar to the original one.

 

[HotTommy]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

Well, I got the cap off the replacement cylinder and it is NOT the same size as the original. So I'll need the use the replacement cylinder with new o-rings and the band fitting pnwboat suggested. Looks like it will be a few more days of waiting for the part to arrive.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

Yup, you are missing the band fitting on the replacement cylinder.

 

[HotTommy]

Frank Acampora

Frank Acampora

Frank,
You have a private message.
Tommy

 

[MickLovin]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

I would say the white cylinder is off a earlier model chrysler or force which had a band holding the hydraulic pipe into place where the hole is located. If you had the old cylinder off, did you look at repairing it with a seal kit? Sorry I get a bit fussy with using parts that aren't just a straight changeover it's probably more to do with keeping the motor original.

 

[HotTommy]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

I would say the white cylinder is off a earlier model chrysler or force which had a band holding the hydraulic pipe into place where the hole is located. If you had the old cylinder off, did you look at repairing it with a seal kit? Sorry I get a bit fussy with using parts that aren't just a straight changeover it's probably more to do with keeping the motor original.

Please see Post # 27.

 

[HotTommy]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

Just wrapping up this thread. I've installed the replacement cylinder and it tests OK. I'm getting closer to firing this thing up for my first time.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: 1993 Force 150 tilt / trim repair

Great! Just make sure you post the final conclusion for others to see and help them in return.