1995 Force 120 will no longer idle

beepx2

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Jan 30, 2006
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35
Thanks for the suggestions, all. I wasted another sunny day on this motor. Now it will barely run at all, and only briefly, and at about half throttle or above. I checked all the wiring on the switch box, found that the insulation had melted off the red wire, and bare wire was contacting the adjacent ring lug and nut, with some burn/melt marks around it. I'm not sure what that goes to but I put new insulation on all the wires which had crumbly or spongy insulation, and checked all the connections. I bought a spark tester, and installed it on the top plug. When cranking, it shows no spark. I thought it was defective, and exchanged it for another, which shows the same result. I did get the motor running briefly at half throttle with the spark tester on there, and I could see some yellow-orange sparks. This makes me think I may have weak spark, as the tester should show spark when cranking, and the spark should be blue-white. I pulled all the plugs and did the "poor man's compression test" by putting my finger over each spark plug hole and manually spinning the flywheel. I felt very solid, even pressure from each hole. Last time I did a real compression test, they were about even at 120. I don't think compression is my problem. Plugs all looked the same, and were slightly moist and smelled like gasoline. Tomorrow I will check the coils to see if they are within spec, and try to isolate and test the plug wires as well. I inspected the engine all over looking at the gaskets - all are intact, and all screws are tight. Fuel pump is new. Fuel primer solenoid works fine, and carb bowls seem to be full of fuel. The bolts for the timing mechanism are all tight, with no sign of movement since I set it to spec a few months ago. Weak spark could explain my problem, but it seems unlikely that all the coils or wires would go bad at the same time. The motor ran like a champ a few months ago. Maybe the stator/magnets/trigger may have an issue. There are a few tests I can run without pulling the flywheel that I will try if the coils are still to spec. I will try the staring fluid on the intake gaskets test next time I get it running. I'll let you know what I find.
 

jerryjerry05

Supreme Mariner
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May 7, 2008
Messages
18,174
Fuel pump can be new and still be bad??
The primer/choke: it has a rubber diaphragm inside that can puncture and feed fuel unrestricted making the idle problem.
I believe if you pinch off the hose from the primer to the base of the carb that will show if the primer's gone bad???
You try the starting fluid test?
This type of spark tester will show/ measure the spark.
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beepx2

Seaman Apprentice
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Jan 30, 2006
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35
Another sunny day half wasted. :( Coils all meet spec. The primer solenoid works as intended. Still no spark. Trigger tests to spec. The stator is somewhat out of spec. Blue wire to blue/white measures 2200 where it should be 3250-3650. Hard to know if that is enough to cause no spark. I don't have a DVA tester to measure output voltage. Next I need to get or borrow one. I also don't have the type of gear puller to remove the flywheel in case I need to get at the stator, but I can borrow/rent one easily. It seems like my next move should be testing output voltages to pinpoint where the failed part is.
 

beepx2

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Jan 30, 2006
Messages
35
Another sunny day half wasted. :( Coils all meet spec. The primer solenoid works as intended. Still no spark. Trigger tests to spec. The stator is somewhat out of spec. Resistance measures 2000 where it should be 3600 or so. I don't have a DVA tester to measure output voltage. I may need to get or borrow one. I also don't have the type of gear puller to remove the flywheel in case I need to get at the stator. It seem like my next move should be testing output voltages to pinpoint where the failed part is.
 

beepx2

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Jan 30, 2006
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35
I tested the primer by listening for the click when I press the key in to verify the solenoid is working. Then I disconnected the feed tubing from the primer valves to the carb, squeezed the bulb until firm and observed that no gas comes out of the valve. Then I push down on the plunger (manual override) on the top of the primer valve, and gas dribbles out. Release it and it stops. I also noticed that after I was cranking the engine for a long time with no start, with heavy priming, with the motor partially tilted up that fuel was dripping out of the carbs. My current thinking is that the problem is the stator or the switchbox (or both) which is causing no spark. Going to do one more set of measurements of resistance and voltages before buying parts.
 

jimmbo

Supreme Mariner
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May 24, 2004
Messages
14,020
How long ago did you do a Compression Test? That was then, you NEED to know what the Numbers are Now.
If 1 & 2 are out, they share a Carb, as do 3 & 4. 1 & 4 also have Seals on the Crankshaft that can leak.
Did you fiddle with any Adjustments on the Throttle Linkage, as that can really mess with the Spark Advance, which is what controls the Idle Speed. The Carbs are supposed to be Fully Closed at Idle, and Barely move until after all the Timing Advance is in.
Can the Spark jump a 7/16" Gap, on all Cylinders. Spark across the Plug means Nothing
 

jerryjerry05

Supreme Mariner
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
18,174
The real test is pinching the hose off as the motor runs. It sounds like you have an electrical problem.
The following is the stator test. Need an analog type meter for the basic tests.
Will not charge battery: 1. Check resistance between the yellow wires, you should read approximately 0.4 ohms. 2. Check the resistance from each yellow wire to engine ground, you should not read any resistance. Resistance to ground indicates a bad stator. No fire at all: 1. Inspect the flywheel outer and trigger magnets to see if they are loose or broken. 2. Check resistance from white/green to green/white wires. You should read 400-600 ohms. Check resistance from white/green and green/white wires to engine ground. There should be no reading with the wires disconnected. 3. DVA (peak voltage) test stator output from white/green to green/white wires. It should be 180v or more with the wires connected to the switch box (CDM modules). 4. Disconnect the rectifier/regulator and retest. If the fire returns, replace the rectifier/regulator
 

beepx2

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Jan 30, 2006
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35
My stator does not have green/white and white/green wires. It has 2 yellow to the rectifier (which is new and working) red, red/white, blue, and blue/white. I'll be taking all measurements shortly.
 

beepx2

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Jan 30, 2006
Messages
35
I'm pulling the flywheel to check the stator and the flywheel magnets. Two of the stator circuits are out of spec. Blue-to blue/white should be 3250-3650 and it is 2200 Ohms. Red-to red/white is 100 ohms. (spec is 75-90) I don't know if that amount of out-of-spec is the problem. Yellow-to-yellow is 40 ohms from my notes, which is way high. Reading of 4 on the 10X scale on my analog multimeter. (spec is 0.4-0.7 ohms) Trigger is to spec, Rectifier is new and working. Coils test to spec. Safety switch circuit disconnected, and no change. Changed out the switch box, since the replacement is inexpensive, but no change. I don't have a DVA tester, and can't find my multimeter which has separate leads to plug in a DVA adapter. I will buy a DVA tester if I can't find any problem under the flywheel
 

beepx2

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Messages
35
Flywheel is off, with a bit of subtle persuasion. The magnets are all in place, and there's no visible damage to the stator. The stator is labelled: 398-8778A24. I will double-check the resistance readings and if they are still testing out of spec I will buy a stator. Need to decide which one, as there are so many variations. and the OEM replacement is NLA. Has anyone bought one?
 
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