2 cycle ban

[jjohnson120]

Re: 2 cycle ban

I see outboards going like ATV's and even dirtbikes. Slowly but surely 2-strokes will be extinct.

 

[scipper77]

Re: 2 cycle ban

I see outboards going like ATV's and even dirtbikes. Slowly but surely 2-strokes will be extinct.

Kind of ironic that outboards are last considering there impact on there environment is the worst (old ones at least that run 50/1 or worse).

 

[sdowney717]

Re: 2 cycle ban

Slowly but surely 2-strokes will be extinct

I think so.

What do you think about 2 stroke diesel like a lot of larger boats have?

A large boat here near LAFB Hampton VA, powered by twin detroit diesel everytime it runs sends out a strange carbony sort of oily look onto the water. The owner came out and ran his motors for an hour and the entire cove was covered. perhaps it was soot.

 

[QC]

Re: 2 cycle ban

Continued confusion here. Nothing is going to be extinct that can keep up technologically. 2 Cycle gasoline engines already meet the newest standards. Two Cycle diesels as you refer to above (prolly 6-71s) are so old that a comparison is ludicrous. The largest and probably most efficient diesel in the world is a 2 Cycle. Mixing up technologies, and especially, assuming that an 80 year old version (2 Cycle with a carb) is indicative of the latest iterations is kind of silly. Heavy-duty truck diesels for example in 2002 put out 4.0 Grams of NOx per horsepower hour, that was 9 years ago. Today's engines are at 0.2 Grams of NOx . . . They are VERY different and that's just 9 years.

 

[Outsider]

Re: 2 cycle ban

I can't wait for the campaign to ban all two stroke engines. Maybe the rest of the country will decide what California wants shouldn't be the bench mark for the other 49 states ...

 

[wizzard_owner]

Re: 2 cycle ban

I will use my 2 stroke outboard as long I can still pay for my lake permit in California. I also love to ride my Kawasaki 500 triple 2 stroke on the street every chance I can. my 2 cents

 

[pcrussell50]

Re: 2 cycle ban

man, the misinformation is rampant around here:

for starters, ca is not to blame for this one:

while there is a lot to blame california for, THIS is not one of them. neither lake mead nor lake mohave touches california. in fact the next lake down the river from mohave, lake havasu, does share a border with ca, and the ban will NOT be applied there. based on that, you might even say that ca is looking out for the rights of it's boaters by not banning 2-strokes...

second, the EPA is not to blame, either:

it is the national park service that is putting the ban into place, not the EPA. the nps is just using EPA guidelines.

third,

all two strokes are not being banned because dfi 2-strokes will be exempt, and all 4-strokes OK, even carbureted ones.

all that said, i think the ban is a bunch of crap. there is and never has been any conclusive evidence that carbureted 2-strokes pollute the lakes. yes, they put out more pollution, but most of that is air pollution. for some reason, it remains undetectable in lake water. the EPA is basically stuck saying, "we can't find any evidence of lake pollution, but there must be some, so we recommend banning carbureted 2-strokes". and the national park service is buying off on it. sucks, but it is what it is.

and finally, a little bit of good news, I wrote the national park service last week, to ask some questions and clarify what they mean. Their original wording was what you guys are all upset about, (and i'm upset, too). BUT now read it.

http://www.nps.gov/lake/planyourvisit/boating.htm

Because I asked them to clarify the rule, they did, and changed the wording, last week, because of my letter to them. Carbureted 2-stroke outboards, on boats, will NOT be banned as of 2013. only carbureted 2-strokes on PWC, not boats. According to the letter they wrote back to me, they still intend to ban carbureted 2-strokes, even on boats, but they have too much other stuff to deal with first. so for now, the ban beginning in 2013 will be PWC only. not boats.

-peter

 

[fishrdan]

Re: 2 cycle ban

Thanks for your help and getting LMNRA to change their wording, pcrussel! Huge thanks!!!

I wrote the national park service last week, to ask some questions and clarify what they mean. Their original wording was what you guys are all upset about, (and i'm upset, too). BUT now read it.

Clean Engine Requirement for PWC's - 2013

36 CFR ?7.48 (f)(3) - After December 31, 2012, no one may operate a personal watercraft (PWC) that does not meet the 2006 emission standards set by EPA for the manufacturing of two-stroke engines. A person operating a personal watercraft that meets the EPA 2006 emission standards through the use of direct-injection two-stroke or four-stroke engines, or the equivalent thereof, is not subject to this prohibition and will be allowed to operate as described in this section.



It was my impression that LMNRA had proposed the ban of all 2 carbed stroke engines, PWC and outboards. Back in 2002 the PWC community was in an uproar when they initially banned PWCs, then LMNRA came back saying they were banning carbed 2 stroke PWC's for environmental reasons. The PWC community was in an uproar again because carbed 2 stroke outboards were allowed,,, sooo LMNRA included carbed s stroke outboards to their 12-31-2012 ban list. At least that's how I saw this all come together.

 

[pcrussell50]

Re: 2 cycle ban

when they wrote me back, they said they still plan to ban 2-stroke outboards eventually. they just don't know when.

-Peter

 

[QC]

Re: 2 cycle ban

they still plan to ban 2-stroke outboards

Please define or we have the same problem . . .

 

[pcrussell50]

Re: 2 cycle ban

I thought i was pretty clear. I'll try again. they had originally planned to ban carbureted 2-strokes for both boats and pwc's beginning in 2013. instead, they are only banning carb 2-strokes pwc's. carb 2-stroke outboards will still be legal in 2013. BUT they eventually plan to ban those too. they just couldn't be specific as to when. they told me they have other issues to work on first, before they get around to banning 2-stroke outboards.

is that reasonably clear? if not, I'll try to get around to scanning the letter they sent me, that explains it. but i don't own a scanner, so it may take me a while.

-peter

 

[pcrussell50]

Re: 2 cycle ban

whoops! I see you put in a smilie. I didnt notice that on my little iphone screen. sorry for the redundant post.

-peter

 

[QC]

Re: 2 cycle ban

No biggee, but in your second post, there is no "carbed" 2 stroke qualifier. Just making sure that your post does not start the confusion again despite your much clearer post before it . . .

 

[boater1234]

Re: 2 cycle ban

When you guys are talking about them baning carbed 2strokes,will that be just lakes or for every body of water including like the atlantic ocean and the gulf of mexico.I mean if they decide to do this which seems to up in the air so far.This makes me want to sell my little new 9.9 2stroke yamaha i just bought.Do you guys think that will ever happen anytime soon?I guess if it does the 2strokes will make great anchors.

 

[QC]

Re: 2 cycle ban

Supposedly it is about drinking water, so I would not expect anything like that ^^^^^

Usually, the EPA does not restrict the use of previously legal stuff. California is different in that they do sunset some technologies. We're dealing with this with trucks as pre 2002s will be gone from some applications after 2020. So far they have not gone after any personal motorized stuff.

 

[scipper77]

Re: 2 cycle ban

Supposedly it is about drinking water, so I would not expect anything like that ^^^^^

Usually, the EPA does not restrict the use of previously legal stuff. California is different in that they do sunset some technologies. We're dealing with this with trucks as pre 2002s will be gone from some applications after 2020. So far they have not gone after any personal motorized stuff.

QC, are you referring to old technology being grandfathered in. Here in NY you need to pass an emissions test to have your car pass inspection for example. The emmisions test does not apply to cars pre 1992 (around 1992 not sure of exact year).

So in CA they would not allow you to run your model T unless it was brought up to todays emission standards (based on the "sunset" comment, I'm not saying that this actually happens to model t's in CA).??

 

[pootnic]

Re: 2 cycle ban

I thought i was pretty clear. I'll try again. they had originally planned to ban carbureted 2-strokes for both boats and pwc's beginning in 2013. instead, they are only banning carb 2-strokes pwc's. carb 2-stroke outboards will still be legal in 2013. BUT they eventually plan to ban those too. they just couldn't be specific as to when. they told me they have other issues to work on first, before they get around to banning 2-stroke outboards.

is that reasonably clear? if not, I'll try to get around to scanning the letter they sent me, that explains it. but i don't own a scanner, so it may take me a while.

-peter

Take a picture of the letter,then attach it.

 

[QC]

Re: 2 cycle ban

QC, are you referring to old technology being grandfathered in.

Yes

Here in NY you need to pass an emissions test to have your car pass inspection for example. The emmisions test does not apply to cars pre 1992 (around 1992 not sure of exact year).

Same here, but I am not clear on the model year. Many states follow CARB rules BTW . . .

So in CA they would not allow you to run your model T unless it was brought up to todays emission standards (based on the "sunset" comment, I'm not saying that this actually happens to model t's in CA).??

No, exempt by the model year thing and . . .

So far they have not gone after any personal motorized stuff.

There have been individual lakes, similar to the National Park Service, that have banned two stroke, CARBURETED engines. But there is no statewide ban that is even being discussed as far as I know.

 

[Tling]

Re: 2 cycle ban

Whew, I just purchase a 90 hp Evinrude, FI, BRP E tech engine. Supposely these are the new pollution free, which is not completely. So I am hoping I am safe.