2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

[LubeDude]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

I am waiting for a reply to Oil Mans question! Why did a 97 model engine require a complete overhaul so soon?? Didnt Oil Man say that his Merc 115 still runs like new and it was over Ten years old?<br /><br />LubeDude

 

[dakotashooter2]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

Maybe if everyone on this board kicked in a few bucks we could send a sample of each and every brand to a lab and have it analized/tested and answer this question once and for all.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

Hello<br /> wow this thread is killer. makes me feel bad. my poor work boat. all it gets is tech 2000 a lot of time spent towing and I have not put plugs in it in several years. it is an old 85 120 with VRO. I put a piston in it in dec of 95 when a buddy owned it. he forgot to loctite one of the reed screws and it went through #3 cyl. I do however not reccomend my maint schedule to anyone.I do this daily to make my payments and my customers happy. at 60 dollars an hour and I spend 5 min each removing cleaning washing and regapping plugs on a v6 how much of my customers money did I spend. and how much did I spend if I just gapped and installed a new set.<br /> before each tune up I take my trusty KV tester and do a quick check of the fireing voltages while warming up the engine. it will point me to any compression or spark issues long before the engine warms up. if the fireing KV is normal I will visually inspect the plug and if it looks ok I will reinstall it but I still recommend a once per yaer replacement.<br />yes I have seen many many plugs in the past 30 years that had allowed moisture on the internals like the carbon resistor in the NGK or theinductive coil in the Q series.4 strokes are a whale of a lot easier on plugs both for oil and heat. plus most cars are not run at full load for hours and hours.<br />some of my customers run 60 miles each way to fish and if the ocean allows they will place it 45-48oo and roll. if I am not towing or trolling my poor 120 is sitting at 5000 rpm. I dont have much experience with the synthetics. not many dealers for it in my area. we did have some issues a few years back with some bio-degradeable tcw-3 oils. did not sit well in our humidity. if most people drove there automobiles like they do the boat you would see a lot more pedestrians. as for using or not using I think boats that every week seem to just keep going. either way I dont have any of the Maytag mans problems. a boat will break if you use it or not Good luck and keep posting and in saltwater nothing lives forever

 

[kenneths]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

Oil man, My 115 required an O/H because the gent that owned it before I bought it, stuck the piston in #4. I bought the engine at that point.<br /> During tear-down, I started at the carbs, and found a very small piece of rubber strung through the main jet on #4. It did some nasty damage and took .020 to clean it up, so I did all 4. Installed wisecos, boyesen reeds and polished exhaust.<br /> As you may have already noticed, this is posted under kennys-my weekend home retreat, But I am the original Walleyehed.<br /> While I'm hear, what would you guys say normal sea-level compression should be on this??????<br /> To let you know where I'm at now, I'm showing 112lbs. on 1, 2, and 4, and 115lbs. on #3.<br />

 

[ezeke]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

Hi LubeDude<br /><br />Put my old 1976 115 Johnson up for the winter yesterday and checked the compression before I fogged it. Results were 135 PSI on all cylinders. <br /><br />This motor is all original and has never been rebuilt. Thought you might be interested.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

ezeke, how many hours you rekin' that 76' has on it????<br /> As well as my 97', I've got a 77' too, but my comp. isn't as good as yours....I'm around 105 on all 4, but I also have 12% less air to compress. At sea-level it may show 120-125. My 97' on the other hand, is about as good as it gets at 3500ft above sea-level.

 

[ezeke]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

Hello Kennyb<br /><br />Probably a little over 5,000 hours. - It's never been pushed too hard and I've done the best I could to take care of it myself. Like any motor, you get to know what to look for over the years, but this motor certainly owes me nothing.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

WOW!!!!! great job of maintaining that one, or it would never go THAT long!!!!!!<br /> Thats good to hear...justifies my favoring OMC products..

 

[BillP]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

When OMC was alive and producing commerical outboards it was common (like everyday) for the commercial guys to get 2000+ hrs out of their powerheads using regular outboard oil (not synthetic). Those motors had basically the same internal parts (pistons, rods, bearing, etc)as the "domestics" we buy retail but with lower compression (65hp commercial = 70hp domestic). Nobody runs their motors harder than the commercial guys.

 

[1stoutboard]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

Hi All.<br /> I am sure some of you have emailed the NMMA about their testing procedure and so forth. This is the reply that I received from the director of engineering regarding their testing, very interesting.! The fee is $25.00 for a copy of the test. This is only an fyi....<br /><br />"Each TC-W3 oil formulation goes through 9 bench tests and 4 engine tests, all in a pass/fail protocol, before it can be certified at TC-W3.<br />This is a very rigorous and expensive testing regime so you know that the oils are all very good.<br />But what is best for your engine? Usually the OEM's recommendation is best, since the OEM has formulated his oil to meet the exact requirements of the particular engine's operating duty cycle. But not every formulation is unique to each brand, and it may be that a formulation is used by more than one marketer, for whatever reason. <br />Still, each has gone through all the testing. So your Wal-Mart oil has passed all the same tests as the Mercury oil. <br />I hope that this answers some of the questions that you have about TC-W3 oil testing.You also asked for the additives of the Mercury oil; that information you must get from Mercury. All TC-W3 test results are also proprietary, but a copy of the tests and the product approval system can be obtained for a nominal change."<br /><br />Thomas Marhevko<br />Director, Engineering Standards

 

[lakeman1999]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

Hello first outboard, your firtst mistake is trusting the word of that director of engeneering.

 

[1stoutboard]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

Lakeman.<br /><br /> I am not preaching and saying that I trust every word he says, I just merely posted what he stated. I have made my own assesment on this topic, and decided what is good and what is not for my motor.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

6hrs on 115 Jonny with Supertech oil. comp. the same. I have noticed one thing and possibly coincidence.......very noticable rough idle....Nowhere near as smooth as it was before I drained the tank. Anything to do with oil??? I don't know. I'll give it some time..we'll see.

 

[1stoutboard]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

Thank you Walley for the test. I am curious when you change back to your old oil, if your idle will remain rough or not.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

Hey all!! Just got back from another 4-1/2 hr running session. I'm running some tests on props again, and also setback and height.<br /> I took comp readings after loading tonite and all appears the same-112-115 on all 4. BUT, I'm having some funky idling problems that have never been present before this...and, as I said, it may be coincidence, as I'm not going to cry wolf yet. It has a "rough-spot" just above idle, a good wake speed you might say (1200-1500rpm). If I punch it, it goes away, and runs like a top.<br /> We are having slightly cooler temps here, and I'm going to have to take this into consideration, as it is running slightly richer, but I don't want to change jets in the middle of this.<br /> Got'er filled and ready for tomarrow nites run...this 12-15gal a night is gonna break me.<br /> No, I wasn't kiddin' when I said most time would be spent WFO........<br /> Results to follow.<br />BTW, I ran into a gent from Texas tonite as I was loading, and we got to talking about just what I was doing. Come to find out this guy used to work at a plant that packaged oil for several different manufactures, and was telling me about the additives that some people want, that other "LABELS" didn't want. I'm not sure where to post the conversation, as it had as much to do with his engine (Jonny 150, fastrike-1996), as it did anything else.........be looking!

 

[UpstNYer]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

Gotta throw my 2 cents into this one.<br /><br />It seems that, over time, outboards can deteriorate by either wearing out or 'rusting' out. This is if you ignore 'stupid human tricks' and outright neglect. Engines that wear out are run frequently for extended periods and need a lubricant that minimizes friction and thereby wear. Because they seldom cool off or do so for only short intervals, protection against the effects of moisture is of little concern. The heat of operation drives the moisture away before it can do much damage and the protective film left by the lubricant is frequently renewed. A tournament fisherman who is on the water 3 or 4 days a week would seem to fall into this category.<br /><br />Engines that 'rust out' spend most of their days just sitting. The run across the bay that would drive moisture out of the engine and renew the protective film may only come once or twice a month. Daily temperature and weather changes contribute to a steady buildup of moisture on engine internals. These engines require much longer lasting protection against internal corrosion than an engine that is run frequently.<br /><br />It's difficult for me to believe that the lubricant that does the best job of reducing friction and protecting the high-use engine would also be the same lubricant that does the best job of protecting the weekend warrior's engine against moisture. The demands are too dissimilar. It could very well be that a tournament fisherman would be best served by synthetic oils while the guy who is lucky to get out twice a month had best stick to 'Dino' oil.<br /><br />There are some similarities between outboard usage and aircraft engine usage. Most piston aircraft engines spend the majority of their time sitting. They're not cheap to run. Then when they do run, they have to deliver rated power with little time for warmup. Synthetic oils got off to a rocky start in this field. On shutdown, the syn. oils were quick to drain off valve train components leaving cam lobes and lifters unprotected for the next startup. If the oil left these parts unprotected against friction, how could it have protected them from corrosion? The straight synthetics quickly took a back seat to Dino/syn. multi viscosity blends in piston aircraft. But engine shops doing thousands of teardowns were finding subpar performance issues even with the blends. The word now is that single viscosity Dino oil is the best bet for the majority of small aircraft engines...good old Aeroshell 80. Because most of these engines just sit (and sit outdoors). They need a protective film that's not quick to run away after shutdown. From a usage standpoint, so do most outboards. But YMMV.<br /><br />Sorry if I seem to be preaching.<br />Bob

 

[kenneths]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

Interesting thoughts, UpstNYer, only problem I see as an aircraft mechanic's view, is these aircraft engines are air-cooled....Whole different ball game, although I will add we have PROVED the straight-weight debate, on piston aircraft engines, and agree totally with you on that, but that type oil is delivered differently and is not designed to burn with the fuel mixture, as 2-stroke oil is........<br /> On to other things...<br />My next report on supertech......another 4 hours tonite and am now begining to believe the stumble at idle is not a coincidence...It's getting much worse. I also have more "black residual" on the leg, than usuall. I noticed when pulling plugs for comp check, the plugs where darker, and even a slight bit wet. Something I haven't seen using the J/E XD-25.<br /> Compression has not changed, and I'm begining to feel there is more to what problems may arise if I continue, than a change in compression.<br /> We had a relatively warm day and I don't feel the temps today caused any difference in mixture.<br /> My Idle is plain getting worse from what I'm used to, and I believe I'm going to "bail-out" and go back to J/E XD-25.<br /> I will, of course, let all know if the idle problem stays, or goes away.......

 

[BillP]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

I'm just wondering, do you guys who are using Amsoil know it is not TCW certified? Regardless of how good the stuff is it voids every new outboard warranty out there and doesn't meet mfgs written specs for use after either. Amsoil only says to use it where TCW oil is specified. This isn't something new but after reading this string it seems to hint that Amsoil is TCW certified. It never was and still isn't according to the latest 2003 NMMA list.

 

[catfish1]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

hey walleyehed, i'm looking forward to hearing if the rough idle stays or goes away. i ran two tankfulls of supertech mix in mine and it didnt change anything, but if you find that the idle straightens out after going back. then i guess i'll rethink running supertech in mine.

 

[1stoutboard]

Re: 2 stroke oil, Topic will not go away !

It looks like different oils have different effect on different motors.(90 hp yamaha) When I tried one gallon of supertech , the engine sounded like a weedwacker, very noisy. I switched to Mercury 2 stroke oil, the engine was not as loud ,it was noticeably quiter. Why? Obviously there is a huge difference.