2 stroke vs 4 stroke outboards

[JB]

Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke outboards

Don't agree, CroSSed.

DFI 2 strokes had been out for years and had demonstrated that 2 strokes can be clean and economical before the E-tec showed up. They had no need to claim that 4 strokes, because they have so many parts, are more likely to break, cost more to service and need service more often.

All they needed to do was emphasize the warranty, time to "scheduled" service, emissions and performance.

Over many (too many) years I have learned that advertising that focuses on bashing the competition is probably offering a product with some unpleasant secret. I consider that approach unethical and unprofessional, as I do monopolistic practices like refusing to sell a boat without your engine on it (Brunswick and, to a lesser extent, Yamaha).

Yes, the Brunswick engines are good engines and the E-tec is an excellent engine. I don't care where they are made, I will not reward unethical business practices.

For now I am using OMC-made JohnnyRudes. If I ever again buy a new engine it will probably be a modernized version of the Bearcat. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if it was made in China and was branded a Johnson.

 

[steelespike]

Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke outboards

I don't know how anyone can count the number of moving parts in a 4 stroke outboard and not realize they have a higher maintenance and repair/failure likely hood over a 2 stroke.For the most part the scare tactics are more fact than scare. 4 strokes are a quality well engineered product but by nature of its design have a higher wear /maintenance factor.
The way to buy a product should be based on its overall value not on how they advertise they all try to make them selves look good and the compitition
look weaker.Some more directly than others.

 

[JB]

Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke outboards

Modern automobiles are sufficient evidence that 4 strokes can last a loooooong time, and that a multiplicity of parts has little or nothing to do with it.

There is no hard evidence. . . only theoretical speculation. . .that a modern 4 stroke is going to be less reliable than a modern 2 stroke.

That "too many parts" argument just doesn't hold water when you look for proof.

 

[Robj]

Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke outboards

I have a 14 foot Livingston with a 40 merc. I was on the Livingston website, and the power rating for my boat was 40 hp, and for the same boat it has been reduced to 25 hp. I called Livingston to ask why and they said because of the weight difference between 4 and 2 strokes. With the heavier 4 strokes it was rated at 25 hp.

With respect to wear, personally I think that a 4 stroke will outlast a 2 stroke. My logic, because a 4 stroke has oil circulating continously throughout the system which lubricates and also flushes out contaminants and cools the system. The two strokes do not have that. I like two strokes and I would not trade my 40 merc for a four stroke.

With fuel injection, two strokes are much cleaner and better on fuel than carburated versions. This is because you no longer use an air fuel mixture to scrub exhaust gases from the combustion chamber. With carburated engines, you were dumping some raw fuel out the exhaust as gases were scrubbed from the combusion chamber.

Have a great day,

Rob.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke outboards

Even with choices between the 2 and 4 stroke people are buying both. Both are being used in recreation and commercially.
There doesn't seem to be a mass exodus from 4 stroke back to 2 stroke.
I don't hear much complaining at the boat ramp either.

 

[jimmbo]

Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke outboards

As for the 4 stroke outlasting the 2 stroke, because auto engines last a long time. Back in the 60s, when the biggest Outboard was 100hp the outboard makers were designing for an engine life of approx 1200 - 1500 hrs at WOT. Today the engines have more power and therefore don't need to be run at WOT to move the boat fast. Easing up on the throttle extends the life many fold. Auto engines last a long time in a car because they run under lighter loads the vast majority of the time. Let's load the the old auto up and run WOT(5000+ rpms) for hours on end. Odds are it wouldn't last 200hrs before a failure or a rebuild is needed. A 2 stroke always has fresh oil passing thru the crankcase, not old dirty, diluted, contaminated oil being recurculated over and over again even after the additive package has long been depleted. Parts, like the the complex valve train cannot cause trouble on a 2 stroke cause they do not exist.

 

[Robj]

Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke outboards

Diluted oil in a four stroke? It is diluted in a two stroke. I have some experience with the old two stroke diesels, and a four stroke diesel will outlast a two stroke. These diesels aren't even real two strokes, they have oil circulation. I guess this topic can get beat to death with opinions. The valve train on a four stroke does wear, but it is not a real high wear item. I definately think the lubrication system of a four stroke is better than a two stroke, which is why I think they would last longer.

Have a great day,

Rob.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke outboards

As for the 4 stroke outlasting the 2 stroke, because auto engines last a long time. Back in the 60s, when the biggest Outboard was 100hp the outboard makers were designing for an engine life of approx 1200 - 1500 hrs at WOT. Today the engines have more power and therefore don't need to be run at WOT to move the boat fast. Easing up on the throttle extends the life many fold. Auto engines last a long time in a car because they run under lighter loads the vast majority of the time. Let's load the the old auto up and run WOT(5000+ rpms) for hours on end. Odds are it wouldn't last 200hrs before a failure or a rebuild is needed. A 2 stroke always has fresh oil passing thru the crankcase, not old dirty, diluted, contaminated oil being recurculated over and over again even after the additive package has long been depleted. Parts, like the the complex valve train cannot cause trouble on a 2 stroke cause they do not exist.

People are "loading up" the 4 stroke (auto based)outboards and they are lasting a heck of a lot longer than 200 hrs.

What "trouble" is present with the "complex valve train"?

You'd think with all the negative theorys on the 4 stroke outboard, these forums would be packed with actual facts to base the claims of an inferior product of a 4stroke, "complex valve train" or otherwise.

People who pay the huge sums for todays outboard aren't allowing the oil to get anywhere near the point of being "old dirty, diluted, contaminated oil being recurculated over and over again even after the additive package has long been depleted".
That would be like me using the arguement that my 4 stroke will last longer then your 2 stroke if you forget to add mix.

The person that does their homework and lays out the money for a 2 or 4 stroke isn't going to be convinced that they've made a mistake. And these very boating forums won't provide him with that evidence either.

The general consensus is that modern 2 and 4 strokes (BOTH)are very good products, so where's the problem?

Instead, greater choice for the consumer is a good thing as is competition that inspires R&D between the two.
Equipment changes way to fast these days to make any lasting claims one way or the other anyhow......run whatcha brung.

 

[jimmbo]

Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke outboards

2 strokes rule

As far as 4 strokes go... well there is Viagra

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke outboards

2 strokes rule

As far as 4 strokes go... well there is Viagra

It's Verado, not Viagra.

 

[jimmbo]

Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke outboards

It's Verado, not Viagra.

No. I meant Viagra.

As for the Verado... a double dose of Viagra needed

 

[Rancherlee]

Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke outboards

The only issue I see with the 4 strokes is that they HAVE to run mechanical lifters/roller followers in oder to be mounted vertically which is the only reason there is a "difficult" service every few hundred hours to check the valve lash. Hydralic lifters would eliminate the need for a valve check BUT they don't work right when sit sideways in vertically mounted engine. This costs people money BUT if you do it yourself then its no big deal and costs nothing to do it yourself. For those who have a dealer do EVERYTHING, get a DFI 2 stroke. For those that can handle an oil change and a valve check every once in awhile then take your pick.

 

[JRJ]

Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke outboards

After having all the $$$fun I could with a carbed 2S, I bought an EFI 4S. The 4S has been such a pleasure I wouldn't consider any 2S.

Look at the repair forums and its evident that 4S OB owners just aren't having many problems. Do 4S owners just whine less?