2stroke motors instalment 1

sinkingfast

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Dec 31, 2003
Messages
34
THE STANDARD TWO STROKE RULES.<br /><br />There has always been a rule of thumb for motors of all types.<br />“If it don’t need fixing……then don’t fix it”<br /><br />I have no problem with that but by sheer logic, it implies you should only fix it when it breaks. Great… try telling that to the guy that just seized his motor 10 miles out through nothing more than bad set up. Now as I said before, a lot of what I say will be common sense, and if you already do all that, then good. But, if I can help just one of you with a bit of information that saves a breakdown, then I am happy.<br /> <br />Ok, your engine manufacturer spent thousands of hours and serious money developing the motors we use. Some good ones and some poor ones, but either way, the manufacturer assumes that certain standards will be used.<br /><br />Let us see if we can establish the baselines for your TWO-STROKE motor.<br /><br />FUEL SUPPLY<br /><br />Most engines will use unleaded gasoline and all the standard carburation settings, oil burn ratios, compression ratios will take that into consideration. The number of the octane rating of the fuel, gives a standard, a known performance. The higher the octane number, the cooler it runs. The cooler it runs, the better the efficiency. Now all the manufacturers have based their settings on a specified grade of fuel. They know what their engine needs to get the best out of it, and they tell you. Stick to it.<br /><br />Playing with fuel additives or higher graded racing fuels to supposedly increase the performance to staggering levels is a waste of time and effort if the factory base settings are left as standard. What it does do however is make the burn coefficient change and it runs slightly cleaner and cooler. If a higher graded unleaded is used every now and then through a season, the effect will be to keep the engine crisp and the oil tartar deposits low. <br /><br />All fuel deteriorates with age, and the racers know that fuel that is more that 3 months old, even when stored in an airtight container, has lost is standard and should not be used. Most use this removed fuel for use in lawn mowers and 4 stroke engines where there is greater latitude on the fuel.<br /><br />Fuel tanks stored empty will raise some condensation and sometimes rust. Flush the tanks out at the start of the season where possible with clean fuel. A small shot of two stroke oil directly into the tank at the season start will also aid the motor settle down and build up the oil barriers faster.<br /><br />For the guys that use carry tanks, they rely on small filters in the line to stop debris but not water. They remove the tank to fill it but leave the fuel line and bulb in place. I can see no reason why they don’t fit a water separation filter somewhere between the tank and priming bulb. <br /><br />To test the priming bulb, squeeze the line between the bulb and motor with a pair of grips.<br />When you are sure the line is blocked off, pump the priming bulb. It should go rock solid.<br />If it doesn’t, replace it. If it is more than 4 years old, you should consider replacing it anyway.<br /><br />The fuel pump on the motor is often activated by vacuum. Look at the pipes on and around the fuel pump. If the small pipes show signs of cracking at the ends, its time to replace them or at least cut them back and re site them.<br /><br />For the more adventurous of you, look at the fuel pump diaphragm. Take the cover off the pump and simply look at the rubber diaphragm. If it is smooth in appearance, that is fine. If however it looks as though it is deformed and stretched change it. Every 4 years it is worth a replacement anyway. It is designed to be changed easily and so don’t be afraid to look.<br /><br />The fuel carries the lubrication in the earlier premix motors;<br />Compromise the fuel, you compromise the lubrication.<br />Use stale fuel, power goes down, temperature goes up.<br />Temperature goes up, you compromise the lubrication again.<br /><br />Two stroke motors work best with a small amount of burnt carbon on the piston crown. Obsessive cleansing or polishing of the piston crowns can also lead to problems. A shinny metal surface of a piston crown being hit by petrol vapour leads to the fuel mixture condensing and turning back into liquid on contact with it. (similar in effect to breathing onto a glass surface). The petrol literally runs off the piston, running down the sides and onto the rings, washing off all the lubricant on them in the process. Start the engine with a dry patch on the ring/cylinder contact area leads to premature failure. This can be true with four-stroke engines that have been “enthusiastically tuned”.<br /><br />I intend to go into the fuel problems later that are associated with engines standing for periods of time and how to deal with them. We can cover reading the burn patterns, oil lubrication efficiency if you would like that.<br /><br />OIL LUBRICATION <br /><br />In general use today, there are 2 types of two stroke lubrication systems.<br />The pre-mixed petrol/oil type, and the auto-lube systems. Each manufacturer specifies an oil grade but almost all of the modern oils are suitable within the same grade.<br /><br />For the premix guys, did you know that storing your oil wrongly could lead to major engine breakdowns? If the stored premix oil is placed on the floor and then subjected to severe frost, it changes its properties. When the season starts, you mix the oil and use it and it is fine for a while, but the oil components literally separate apart from within the petrol/oil mix. Re-mixing it will not help. The lubrication is compromised and so one minute you are smoking; next minute crank and rod bearings have gone. If in any doubt at all, don’t use frosted oil. (So far we have not seen this problem with the autolube guys.)<br /><br />Mixing a little extra oil into the fuel “just in case” leads to more oil but less combustible fuel, so more temperature, actually compromising the efficiency of the oil. Extra temperature leads to extra tartar and resin forming round the piston rings, and lowers the effectiveness of the ring.<br /><br />The manufacture will have settings for the auto oil mixing pumps. By the same token, the factory settings and recommendations are set for a reason. Check them and never assume they don’t alter, they do.<br /><br />Many autolube engines now have a simple failsafe warning system on them to prevent the level getting too low. It costs nothing to check the connections and trip the sensor with your finger to see if it is functioning.<br /><br />Basics I know<br />How many times have I seen seized motors, bearings gone and ruined motors that could have been avoided?<br /><br />I will tell you… Too many!<br /><br />Give me some feedback as to the level of information you require so I can build that into the next instalment.
 

JasonJ

Rear Admiral
Joined
Aug 20, 2001
Messages
4,163
Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

I have not heard that about cold temperature and 2 stroke oil. My area has been experiencing -15f degrees, and my 2 stroke oil is sitting out in my unheated garage. Are you saying that the excessively cold temps will affect that oil and that when I go to use it in spring that it won't be as good as if it was kept warm?
 

sinkingfast

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Dec 31, 2003
Messages
34
Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

I can only give you my experiences.<br /><br />The oil that was stored on the floor ruined 5 motors £1200 each build.<br /><br />If its only a small amount, chuck it.. if its a lot you will have to weigh up the risks.<br /><br />Personally I dont take risks.
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

Good information geraint. I have a couple of comments...<br /><br />There is a big difference in, "don't fix it till it's broke", and maintenance. As a kid I remember my dad putting a brand new Mercury on one of his boats that had been sitting for a few years. Engine ran great for about 2 minutes. Then the contaminated, stale fuel blew her up. Duh. :( <br /><br />
The higher the octane number, the cooler it runs. The cooler it runs, the better the efficiency.
For the most part. But higher octane fuel burns less readily and they are less volatile. In effect they retard fuel ignition timing. This reduces power. <br /><br />Efficiency isn't necessarily a measure of how cool the engine runs. Basically there are two types of efficiency in engines. Thermal efficiency and mechanical efficiency. Thermal efficiency is based on how much of the burning fuel is converted into useful horsepower. Mechanical efficiency is based on the relationship of power developed within the engine, to that delivered at the crankshaft.<br /><br />Sticking to the manufacture's specified octane rating is great advice.<br /><br />
If a higher graded unleaded is used every now and then through a season, the effect will be to keep the engine crisp and the oil tartar deposits low.
It is my understanding that modern regular grade gasolines (at least in the USA) have everything in them to keep the engine crisp and clean. In most respects, higher grade gasolines seem to be a waste of money.<br /><br />
fuel that is more that 3 months old, even when stored in an airtight container, has lost is standard and should not be used.
No doubt that fresh fuel is always better. However I have seen literature from Chevron and others that claim gasoline can maintain its standards for a year (without stabilizer).<br /><br />
We can cover reading the burn patterns, oil lubrication efficiency if you would like that.
I used to race pre-mix 2-stroke snowmobiles. We would run extremely heavy amounts of oil in the fuel. This would allow a lean fuel to air ratio providing lots of power, yet provide the lubrication and cooling due to the oil, which was usually scavenged instead of burned.<br /><br />
If the stored premix oil is placed on the floor and then subjected to severe frost, it changes its properties.
I believe most modern 2-stroke oils are free of this problem. My 2-stroke snowmobile oils are left in cabins at subzero arctic temperatures most of the winter. Never a problem. never noticed separation. I am curious as to what brand/type of oil did this.<br /><br />Again, good tips and information. Thanks. :)
 

mellowyellow

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Joined
Jun 8, 2002
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5,327
Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

it is certainly nice of you to take the time and<br />write/post this here. my hat's off to you sir!<br />kind regards,<br />M.Y.
 

jtexas

Fleet Admiral
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Oct 13, 2003
Messages
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Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

Just some feedback:<br /><br />
Originally posted by geraint:<br />THE STANDARD TWO STROKE RULES.<br /><br />There has always been a rule of thumb for motors of all types.<br />“If it don’t need fixing……then don’t fix it”<br /><br />
In the airline business we fix things before they break, and as you suggest, I would prefer to take that approach with my outboard. So, thanks for providing us with the benefit of your experience. <br /><br />Speaking for myself, I especially appreciate the advice on maintenance intervals for various items under varying operating conditions, like the bit about the fuel pump lines. You've provided some explanation & reasoning for your advice which I think helps fine tune it to our particular application. I found the level of technical detail sufficient but not overwhelming. You should probably expect to be challenged now and then; hope you don't mind a bit of debate. :) <br /><br />I can see that this requires more than a little time & effort on your part and I do appreciate it. Also thanks to forktail & others with the experience to review & tailor the info to other situations.<br /><br />jtw
 

catfish1

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 23, 2003
Messages
683
Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

For the premix guys, did you know that storing your oil wrongly could lead to major engine breakdowns? If the stored premix oil is placed on the floor and then subjected to severe frost, it changes its properties. When the season starts, you mix the oil and use it and it is fine for a while, but the oil components literally separate apart from within the petrol/oil mix. Re-mixing it will not help. The lubrication is compromised and so one minute you are smoking; next minute crank and rod bearings have gone. If in any doubt at all, don’t use frosted oil. (So far we have not seen this problem with the autolube guys.)<br />
i have never heard of this before! and if it were true for premix, it would be more true for a vro system that is stored outside in the freezing temps. this really bothers me because i dont believe it! but after reading this i'm not going to risk it either. if anyone can validate this claim please step forward. i'm kinda freakin out now!
 

sinkingfast

Seaman Apprentice
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Dec 31, 2003
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Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

Hello there,<br /><br />I mentioned about the oil from past experiences..... 5 separate engine customers that were running crank bearings without any cause.<br />The problem was eventaully isolated to one make of oil that was being used and stored badly.As all the modern oils are so similar, prevention is better than risk taking. Many failures have occured I am sure and a cause never found. <br /><br />The problem was that after mixing, the oil did not behave as required. Now all I can say is....<br />If it has happened before, it can happen again.<br />All the engines concerned were of 2 manufacturers<br />and we did test after test to isolate it. My engines have been used at international competition level and I too have raced at the Isle of Man TT with them.<br /><br />My idea was to help with information, not to scare, only to share experiences. If I can stop one engine from a needless failure than I am happy, although I am not too sure If I want to do the next instalments now.
 

andrewkafp

Lieutenant Commander
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Mar 15, 2003
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1,668
Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

Well done Geraint..As thorough as the English Rugby team :rolleyes: <br />You haven't covered the procedure of short term storage (Say 1 month) Do you run motor out of fuel or just turn it off and leave it ? Also do you recommend fuel additives such as Stabil to increase fuel storage time ?<br />Our website seems to be going from strength to strength..
 

lund17

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Oct 22, 2003
Messages
216
Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

Geraint- KUDOS! I am not a wrench, just a relatively new boat owner. I come here to read and learn. One thing I have learned here is that there is great debate on many topics - just read the thread on what brand/type of oil. The debate IMO enhances the learning process and each individual will come to their own opinion within their comfort zone. I hope you noticed that most replies conveyed a desire for further research and more knowledge. I sincerely hope you provide another installment that will surely raise some debate to the betterment of all. Thank you for your investment of time and energy in providng a thoughtful contrbution.
 

Stefan Schmitt

Seaman Apprentice
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Jan 3, 2004
Messages
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Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

Thanks for that excellent post! I copied and pasted it to my desktop for future reference.<br /><br />Being a recent newcomer to boatbuilding myself and a total ignorant to outboards (one which I plan to get running again), I really appreciate this board and all the people willing to put in their energy to help out.<br /><br />...since, I have a freebie outboard myself...and pretty much no clear description of what went wrong with it, other than that it doesn't run...another great installment to your 'Basic how-to articles' would be one on 2-stroke engine diagnostics.<br /><br />In other words, a guide on how to go about finding out what is wrong with a 2-stroke engine. Just something basic...something that would help to get someone like myself started. ;) <br /><br />Thanks again!
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
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45,907
Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

Howdy, Bones.<br /><br />Check out the FAQ article on "Outboard Wont Start" For a starting point in diagnosing your engine troubles.<br /><br />Geraint. <br /><br />Excellent start, Sir. Give us more. :)
 

OBJ

Supreme Mariner
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Dec 27, 2002
Messages
10,161
Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

Yes indeed....a very excellent start Geraint.<br /><br />Just a comment here on the "If it ain't broke...Don't fix it". My problem with the statement is that it tends to put the owner of the engine, no matter what kind it may be, in a position of "when it breaks then I'll fix it". This is not really a good attitude to take with motor investments hitting the 5 digit mark.<br /><br />The majority of engine failures that come to my shop could have been prevented with some simple preventive maintenance. Example, the VRO alarm fails to warn the operator that the oil supply to the pump has failed or is restricted. Engine seizes. In this particular instance, the horn module was bad. Could have been prevented by a little preseason PM.<br /><br />I strongly push as do the majority of wrenches on this site for PM on a regular basis. And also getting a service manual and reading it and understanding it.<br /><br />Bottom line, IMHO, a little fixin' before it breaks don't hurt.<br /><br />Again, super post. Keep the info coming. :D
 

JasonJ

Rear Admiral
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Aug 20, 2001
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Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

Geraint, give us more! My main concern with the info was the freezing oil thing. My area gets quite cold, and I have used oil from the season before, after it has sat in the freezing cold all winter. I have never had any problems. This season I am trying a better oil anyway, so its not an issue.
 

sinkingfast

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Dec 31, 2003
Messages
34
Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

Ok,<br />what do you want instalment 2 to cover?<br /><br />How a two stroke fails and why?<br /><br />How to take periodic engine readings to assess?<br /><br />How to set up carburation?<br /><br />... or do you want one to cover all 3<br /><br />electrics and sparks?<br /><br />dead motor? where to start?<br /><br />Blown motor? where to start crying :D <br /><br />Sorry, couldnt resist that one?<br /><br />what do you want to know? or which topic first<br /><br />AND MORE IMPORTANT WHAT LEVEL??????<br />Geraint
 

jtexas

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Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

I vote #3 - "How to take periodic engine readings to assess?"<br /><br />thanks!
 

Terry H

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Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

I'll also go with #3...just a Thought
 

lund17

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Oct 22, 2003
Messages
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Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

In defense of Geraint. I believe in his opening paragraph he uses the idiom of If it ain't broke don't fix it as an example of the wrong way to attend your motor. The next paragraph expresses his belief that with some preventative maintence and by avoiding certain pitfalls one can avoid problems and prolong the usefulness of their motors. <br />My vote for next post would be 1&2. How and why and the readings to assess. I believe the same level as the first post so it's accessible to the newbies(like me). Replies to the post and the resulting debate will naturally take it to the next level.
 

sinkingfast

Seaman Apprentice
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Dec 31, 2003
Messages
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Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

Instalment 2 under way <br /><br />LUBE: How to read the two stroke..... to keep it healthy and happy.<br /><br />if the first one got em commenting, this one should get em going :eek: )
 

OBJ

Supreme Mariner
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Dec 27, 2002
Messages
10,161
Re: 2stroke motors instalment 1

neil2fish....you are absolutely correct and I stand corrected. <br /><br />Just hope every one reads it as close as you :D and does PM on a regular basis.<br /><br />Thanks....Jim
 
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