2stroke restrictions

Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
50
I've read that the can't outlaw 2strokes altogether but can restrict their usage.
Anyone know what a typical restriction might be? And where?
I have both a 45hp on a classic Glaspar and 115hp on a Baretta pleasure.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: 2stroke restrictions

From here.

Use of Two-stroke Engines
The use of carbureted two-stroke engines will be prohibited on December 31, 2012. These marine engines have been shown by the Environmental Protection Agency to be inefficient, allowing 25% of the fuel to be discharged directly into park waters. EPA prohibits the manufacture of these engines in 2006, when all marine spark ignition engines will have to meet higher operating standards. On December 31, 2012, all engines will be required to meet these EPA manufacturer standards for operation on Lakes Mead and Mohave. This approximate ten-year time frame is proposed to allow adequate time to inform the public and allow for a timely conversion to the more efficient engine technology.
 

dorelse

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
624
Re: 2stroke restrictions

Does anyone else here not believe that its only a matter of time until this is a 50 State wide ban?

I mean, I have a 1986 85HP Force OB, so it would require me to fork out a lot of $$ for a new 'clean' one...but I want our lakes clean & safe & around for my kids & grandkids to use and enjoy.
 
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
50
Re: 2stroke restrictions

Even to get a used one, how much is a motor going to cost for the same power in a 4stroke?
And what's the power crossover going to be? Is a 115hp 2stroke the same as a 4stroke? Will I need a bigger or smaller motor for my boat?
 

ultrarunner

Cadet
Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
29
Re: 2stroke restrictions

I was sadly faced with the same problem...

The family boat that 3 generations learned to ski with has a 1957 2-Stroke Evinrude that was banned in 1999 after more that 40 years on the Lake...

The cost to re-power plus the added weight at the time made it cheaper to buy a new I/O mercruiser...

About the only venue left to use our old trusty 2-Stroke is Salt Water in my State.

Strange thing is that back in 1999, West Marine sold a biodegradable 2-Stroke Motor Oil that was environmentally friendly if not costly... about 5 x the cost of Dino Oil...

I went to battle with the powers that be at Lake Tahoe by suggesting using this new "Green Oil" would make everyone happy... not so... because it was explained they had no reliable way to determine what type of 2-stoke oil was in the mix...

This was 10 years ago and I wouldn't bet against it going nationwide or at least the lower 48...

Just for fun... I took the Boat out for one last circumnavigation of Lake Tahoe on the last day 2-Strokes were allowed :D
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: 2stroke restrictions

Just pointing out the obvious, the quote says "carbureted" two stroke engines
Yes, and considering that some lakes and localities banned all two strokes, I almost believe that is progress. I have been in a couple of fights with the emissions people here and they often start with banning a technology as opposed to limiting emissions. In this case, I think it is safe to say that Carbed two strokes do some bad things and cannot be corrected easily, so I condemn them less . . . :rolleyes:
 

maxh

Cadet
Joined
Jul 11, 2009
Messages
21
Re: 2stroke restrictions

Boaters are concerned because their vessel repair shop, mechanic, or marine store has told them that soon they will no longer be able to legally use their vessel on California waterways.

The fact is, there is no statewide prohibition on the use of high emission two-stroke vessel engines statewide and there is no plan to prohibit them.

The state regulations, from the California Air Resources Board (ARB) Recreational Marine Engine Program, are concerned with the manufacture and sale of NEW marine gasoline two-stroke engines. ("New" means the engine has never been sold to an end-user.) The ARB regulations ordered vessel engine manufacturers to build cleaner emission engines meeting increasingly strict standards with steps in 2001, 2004, and 2008. These ARB regulations do not affect the use of any vessels on waterways, other than the fact that consumers will obtain improved gas mileage from the new models now on the market.

A small number of cities, counties or districts have adopted ordinances on drinking water reservoirs that restrict or ban the use of high emission, carbureted or electronic fuel injection (EFI) two-stroke marine engines.

To date, there are only 11 lakes with use conditions for high emission vessel engines, mostly in northern California. There are no salt-water or river restrictions based solely on high emission vessel engines.

Cleaner technology direct-injection two-stroke marine engines, manufactured since 1999, can be used on all waterways in California, except for some waterways that have generic prohibitions, such as banning all motorboats or all personal watercraft.

For more information, and a list of bans and restrictions, please visit, and direct your customers to, the Department of Boating and Waterways' Website on this topic: http://www.dbw.ca.gov/Environmental/TwoStroke/.

We hope this clears up any confusion about this subject. Should you have any questions, please contact Gloria Sandoval at (916) 263-0788.

from

at least for california...
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: 2stroke restrictions

That ^^^^^^ is consistent with my understanding here. Rumors always place this as "all two strokes are banned", but It's not the case in most current legislation.

FWIW the reason I posted the Lake Mead language was the contention that "Grandfathering" would be allowed. It is not.
 

ultrarunner

Cadet
Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
29
Re: 2stroke restrictions

It doesn't really matter if Carbureted 2 Strokes are not banned Statewide if they are banned at every Lake where you boat...

It is becoming more and more difficult in my area to go boating in Fresh Water... Thankfully the boating lobby has some power and has been able to beat back proposed carbureted 2-stroke bans on the Delta....

There was time where equipment maintained and under the same ownership was routinely Grandfathered... this is no longer the case... at least in CA...

We have mandatory phase-out of all non compliant diesel over 50 hp ordered by the Bay Area Air Quality Management District... perfectly maintained Hospital Emergency Generators are not exempt...

I attended hearings when Lake Tahoe and surrounding Lakes in the Tahoe watershed moved to ban carbureted outboards... speaker after speaker urged the board to take the bold step and set a precedent so that one day all carbureted 2-strokes would be banned from all Freshwater in the State...

We naively thought catalytic EPA Certified Wood Burning Stoves would be Grandfathered when new air-regulations were imposed... makes no difference... old or new are subject to the no-burn just the same...

Here's a link to my local Fishing Spot... must be 2004 Certified to go on the lake... http://www.ebmud.com/services/recreation/east_bay/san_pablo/2 CYCLE poster.pdf
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: 2stroke restrictions

We have mandatory phase-out of all non compliant diesel over 50 hp ordered by the Bay Area Air Quality Management District... perfectly maintained Hospital Emergency Generators are not exempt...
That's ridiculous. Has the South Coast AQMD done the same? I am not up on my Stationary regs, but that makes so little sense . . .
 

ultrarunner

Cadet
Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
29
Re: 2stroke restrictions

That's ridiculous. Has the South Coast AQMD done the same? I am not up on my Stationary regs, but that makes so little sense . . .

I only mentioned it to show that equipment can face mandatory retirement...

Letters went out to Hospitals advising currently permitted Diesel Generators may face mandatory retirement... right now the construction industry is the hardest hit... even though Federal Regs do not require mandatory retirement... California does...

There was some extra leeway granted in the latest budget deal for additional time...

Here are a couple of links...
http://www.constructionweblinks.com/Resources/Industry_Reports__Newsletters/Aug_27_2007/cali.html
 
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
50
Re: 2stroke restrictions

I just don't want to rebuild both boat and motor and not get to use them because of regulations. there's no way I can ever afford a new motor. or even a used one for that matter. those prices will keep me off the water.
 

cougar1985

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
1,023
Re: 2stroke restrictions

PAT, (Edit: Dabble into politics, please reread the rules - QC) "those in" cal cant keep you off the sea,its federal then international!i think cal does what its doing because of the population per say,lets face it the pop of cal is more than my whole country period.correct me if im wrong but does not tahoe patrol their lake with e-tec outboards?i know im having a hard time justifing going from my 300lbs 90 evinrude to a newer or new 375 lbs 75 hp opti or a 390 lbs 4 poke (Edit: Dabble into politics, please reread the rules - QC) another varable for the future may be 6 stroke technoligy!yup you read right 6 stroke as allready done by auto union italia in testing.now maybe that could be the solution to 4 stroke weight and 2 stroke percieved dirtyness!
 
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
50
Re: 2stroke restrictions

another varable for the future may be 6 stroke technoligy!
I've never heard of 6stroke. Of course I don't keep up with the newer tech. But how will it work? to be lighter AND less emissions? Almost sounds as realistic as cold fusion in the near future. Is it a reality? And is it going to cost even more than the difference of 2stroke vs 4stroke.
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: 2stroke restrictions

It is called a Miller cycle, Patrick. Mazda actually marketed a car with it. Don't know what happened, but I guess it had some flaw (or perceived flaw) that made it unsellable.

Let's get some creative engineering going here to convert some of our beloved JohnnyRudes to clean burners. Come up with a conversion kit at a reasonable price and you will make Bernie Madoff look like a ne'er do well.

I have converted air cooled chainsaw engines (for racing karts) to run on methanol and castor oil, but I don't think that would fly. It has to be something that can't be made to pollute. Think about a simplified mechanical fuel injection system (that would get around the "carbureted" language).
 

daveswaves

Ensign
Joined
Mar 22, 2002
Messages
901
Re: 2stroke restrictions

It is called a Miller cycle, Patrick. Mazda actually marketed a car with it. Don't know what happened, but I guess it had some flaw (or perceived flaw) that made it unsellable.

Let's get some creative engineering going here to convert some of our beloved JohnnyRudes to clean burners. Come up with a conversion kit at a reasonable price and you will make Bernie Madoff look like a ne'er do well.

I have converted air cooled chainsaw engines (for racing karts) to run on methanol and castor oil, but I don't think that would fly. It has to be something that can't be made to pollute. Think about a simplified mechanical fuel injection system (that would get around the "carbureted" language).
Remember the early corvette mechanical fuel injection?
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: 2stroke restrictions

Actually, Crower invented the six stroke by adding a steam cycle to a four stroke. Read about it today on Wikipedia. Miller is more of a timing thing than an addition of strokes.
 
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