3.0 litre starters

[John Corner]

I'm new to the forums, but not new to boating. I recently purchased a new four winns and am quite happy about it and ready for the upcoming season. I know there is a lot of knowledge out there and I have a question that might seem strange, but I'll ask anyway. I work for Zamboni Company and we have started to use 3.0 litre gm engines in our machines. They are an "industrial" version but are almost exactly the same as marine engines. We have encountered some issues with starters going bad quite prematurely, and I was wondering if the marine world could add a little insight as to why, and/or how these starters fail. Is it common? Any information would be greatly appreciated and I hope I can somehow help somebody in the near future with some of my past experience. Regards John Corner

 

[Don S]

Re: 3.0 litre starters

Welcome to iboats John.
First, you need a marine starter. They are sheilded to prevent sparks in the engine compartment that could ignite fumes if you had a fuel leak.
Second. I have tried to use some aftermarket starters on customers boats and it just never works out with a 3.0L. We replace and replace then move on up to the OEM starter from Mercruiser and never have any problems. Same with Volvo.
Not sure what the after market guys are missing, but there is something.

 

[SuperDaddy]

Re: 3.0 litre starters

I'm new to the forums, but not new to boating. I recently purchased a new four winns and am quite happy about it and ready for the upcoming season. I know there is a lot of knowledge out there and I have a question that might seem strange, but I'll ask anyway. I work for Zamboni Company and we have started to use 3.0 litre gm engines in our machines. They are an "industrial" version but are almost exactly the same as marine engines. We have encountered some issues with starters going bad quite prematurely, and I was wondering if the marine world could add a little insight as to why, and/or how these starters fail. Is it common? Any information would be greatly appreciated and I hope I can somehow help somebody in the near future with some of my past experience. Regards John Corner

Don't your engines run on propane?

 

[John Corner]

Re: 3.0 litre starters

Thanks for the response. I know marine starters and such are shielded for spark reasons. You are saying then that aftermarket starters are not that reliable, so how would I know if I am using a starter that is an "aftermarket"? Who makes the mercruiser/volvo starters? I wonder if our engine package supplier uses a starter manufacturer that is not top notch! Thanks again, I appreciate it!!!

 

[John Corner]

Re: 3.0 litre starters

Our engines run on propane, natural gas, and gasoline (EFI) Is there any difference starter wise?? The propane/natural gas engines are the same package (we convert them to n/g) the gasoline is its own package.

 

[JustJason]

Re: 3.0 litre starters

We have encountered some issues with starters going bad quite prematurely, and I was wondering if the marine world could add a little insight as to why, and/or how these starters fail.

Starters go bad when they are either starving for voltage, or are subjected to extended cranking times.
In the marine world... Voltage drop across a line is the #1 starter killer.
Voltage drop can by caused by dirty battery terminals, rotted cables, rotted cable ends, bad crimps/connecters/terminations. Loose wires, etc etc etc....
You can also have a drop if you are using an under rated battery or if the cables in the zamboli are not of the correct gauge to begin with.
You can do this test to figure out if you are having a voltage drop situation.

http://www.fluke.com/application_notes/automotive/circuit.asp?AGID=1&SID=103

As far as part 2 goes.... if your constantly cranking the engine over because it won't start, and if your cranking and cranking until it does... that will most certainly kill a starter as well.

 

[SuperDaddy]

Re: 3.0 litre starters

Our engines run on propane, natural gas, and gasoline (EFI) Is there any difference starter wise?? The propane/natural gas engines are the same package (we convert them to n/g) the gasoline is its own package.

Sorry, I didnt mean to imply that there was a difference in the starters for the "alternative" fuel method engines. I just assumed there was a difference. My fault.

Do you happen to know why you use the marine-type engines in Zamboni's in the first place? Is it a matter of choice, or just what you are left with if you want an "industrial" type engine?

On a side note, isn't the gasoline engine Zamboni's exhaust a problem in enclosed ice rinks? I thought that was the reason for LP and natural gas engines in the first place.....

 

[J JACKSON]

Re: 3.0 litre starters

the 3.0 gm engine has been used in forklifts for years. i just put a starter on one today and noticed it was stamped marine on the nose housing.

 

[John Corner]

Re: 3.0 litre starters

We asked for a 4 cylinder "industrial" engine, and what we ended up with was a 3 litre GM with "industrial" components. It is a package of all the "best" bolt on parts. The starters are marine, some of the fuel components are not. Gasoline machines are primarily used on outside rinks (rivers etc.) We are though seeing starters fail, not with many hours on them. Since they are marine starters I thought this would be a good place to ask. We have to determine if they are "bad" starters, or if something we are doing is wrong. How much heat can they take? Our exhaust is fairly close, 3 or 4 inches away, wondering if that could be an issue. Thanks for any input, sorry to hi-jack the forum, but there are no "Zamboni" help forums!!!!! (plus we are the manufacturer!)

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: 3.0 litre starters

Heat can definitely be an issue.
Is there a heat shield between the exhaust and starter?
You might want to get a laser thermometer and measure the case temp. of the starter:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96451

 

[Don S]

Re: 3.0 litre starters

Somehow, John, I missed the whole Zamboni thing.

Let me ask this first. Does this happen on all of them, or just the carbed version, and what ignition system do they have?

 

[chiefalen]

Re: 3.0 litre starters

I'm going to ask you a question?? Actually 3 questions.

Do you install a front bracket on your starter, to help reduce vibration ?

When you say the starter, goes bad, what goes bad in the starter??

IE: the solenoid , the bendix, the motor, what??

Are the starters getting wet all the time??

 

[SuperDaddy]

Re: 3.0 litre starters

... Thanks for any input, sorry to hi-jack the forum, but there are no "Zamboni" help forums!!!!! (plus we are the manufacturer!)

Well then start one!!!! hahahahaha......

I'd say you'd be the perfect candidate.

 

[puddle jumper]

Re: 3.0 litre starters

Like Chiefanlen asked what goes wrong with the starter.

Does the just stop working.

Does it not engage properly.

If installed on a propane/ natural gas unit and in the cold. Long starter crank time is common if the system is not set up properly. Same with a carberated
engine

Regardless of what it is it's still just a simple starting system.

 

[DJ]

Re: 3.0 litre starters

How much heat can they take? Our exhaust is fairly close, 3 or 4 inches away, wondering if that could be an issue. Thanks for any input, sorry to hi-jack the forum, but there are no "Zamboni" help forums!!!!! (plus we are the manufacturer!)

John,

You may have something there.

Boats do not get that hot. Maybe 180 degrees, under the hood.

If the exhaust and starter are in a fairly enclosed area, that may be your issue.

Some others also spoke to making sure you are using the proper guage cables, etc.

The real proof would be to disassemble a few and SEE what is failing. Perhaps, then, you can come to a solid/proveable conclusion.

 

[Shizzy]

Re: 3.0 litre starters

does GM still use the same style starter it did for years? I have an Old Cutlass that eats solenoids about every two years. the headers run very close.

 

[JustJason]

Re: 3.0 litre starters

Our exhaust is fairly close, 3 or 4 inches away, wondering if that could be an issue.

Wha???? Unless i'm totally lost.... (and i'm usually not unless there is sugar and yeast involved) If you are facing the front of a 3.0L.... as in facing the drive pulleys.... the starter is on the lower left side down bottom, and the exhaust is on the right side of the motor.... So am i missing something here?

Can you post a few pic's of your particular machine. Left side, right side, and front???

Have you done the voltage drop test yet?