350 to 454 upgrade?

Silly Seville

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

Thanks again Roger...excellent information. I just crawled into engine bay and retrieved what I hope is a block casting number. I will run a search and post the results of my findings.

Edit: Well, that was easy...according to 2 different websites, I have an 86-88 350 with a 4 bolt main and 1 piece seal. Is this good news, bad news or irrelevant since I am going to need a replacement short-block anyway?

Funny thing is, I have read that one usually gets the previous years motor in a current model year boat...I was thinking for sure that I would have had an '85 production engine or the very last of the '86 2 piece rear in my vessel. Any thoughts?

Edit: Argh! According to yet another website, my number reveals a '87 to '95 model engine, 2 or 4 bolt...:confused:
 

RogersJetboat454

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

Thanks again Roger...excellent information. I just crawled into engine bay and retrieved what I hope is a block casting number. I will run a search and post the results of my findings.

Edit: Well, that was easy...according to 2 different websites, I have an 86-88 350 with a 4 bolt main and 1 piece seal. Is this good news, bad news or irrelevant since I am going to need a replacement short-block anyway?

Funny thing is, I have read that one usually gets the previous years motor in a current model year boat...I was thinking for sure that I would have had an '85 production engine or the very last of the '86 2 piece rear in my vessel. Any thoughts?

If you get a 1 piece rear main seal short block, there is a chance you can re-use your original flywheel. You would need to be sure that the replacement short block's starter pad is drilled to accommodate the starter needed that matches with your flywheel. A 168 tooth flywheel uses a cross bolted style starter (bolts are in this pattern \). Of it you have a 153 tooth flywheel, your starter would use a strait bolt pattern (bolt pattern looks like this l ). Allot of blocks are drilled for both, but some aren't.

If you want to solve the mystery of what year the engine was cast, look for a 3-4 digit date code which will tell you the month and year cast. Usually starts with a letter of the alphabet to denote the month, and a 2 digit date. This will help; http://www.yearone.com/updatedsinglepages/id_info/gm_engine_id/engineinfo1.asp
 

RogersJetboat454

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

Edit: Argh! According to yet another website, my number reveals a '87 to '95 model engine, 2 or 4 bolt...:confused:

Don't sweat the small stuff. ;)
You know you have a 1 piece RMS block. The only difference that may be with the later stuff is the possibility of a factory roller cam, and center bolt valve cover heads. Do your heads have valve covers with bolts in the center, or are they perimeter bolts (mounted where the flange of the valve cover meets the head)?
 

Silly Seville

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

Roger...you are so helpful! Thanks for that website link. I found this...A237 must be January 23rd 1987 right? I'm running back out to look at valve covers...

Edit: Definitely perimeter bolts on the valve covers.
 

RogersJetboat454

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

Sounds about right. '87 was the first year for center bolt valve covers, so your heads may or may not be left over from '86. That doesn't really matter though, because you are gunna be ditching the old door stop heads for vortec's, right? ;) :D
 

Silly Seville

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

you are gunna be ditching the old door stop heads for vortec's, right?

Ha! I'm glad you asked first, because that was going to be my next question of you! Is it absolutely necessary to use the Vortec heads, or can I use the 'ol rectangular anchors? Am I going to see (feel) that much of a performance improvement just cruising around the harbor and taking the occasional sprint to the channel to clean bugs off the windshield? Your knowledge is truly appreciated!

Edit: BTW, I looked carefully at starter...the bolts are stacked, or in the vertical arrangement. Can't tell whether 3rd mounting hole is present in block however...
 

Silly Seville

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

:facepalm: OK, I just ran the intake manifold casting number, and it reports back a '76 thru '82 model! Why would Mercruiser put such an old manifold on an "87" engine. I knew something was amiss because Mercruiser info states this as a two barrel application (1986 350/260 Alpha 1) This at least explains why there is a Quadrajet (4 barrel) carb on this motor! I think the previous owner(s) must have had some work done! Can I use this intake and Quadrajet on Vortec heads, or do I have to scrap them for modern parts? What is an old Q-Jet worth anyway?
 

RogersJetboat454

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

Ha! I'm glad you asked first, because that was going to be my next question of you! Is it absolutely necessary to use the Vortec heads, or can I use the 'ol rectangular anchors? Am I going to see (feel) that much of a performance improvement just cruising around the harbor and taking the occasional sprint to the channel to clean bugs off the windshield? Your knowledge is truly appreciated!

Edit: BTW, I looked carefully at starter...the bolts are stacked, or in the vertical arrangement. Can't tell whether 3rd mounting hole is present in block however...

Figure a 20-30hp gain over the anchors. It's your call.
Heads are what make most of the power happen.
If your heads are in reasonable shape (not rotted), a machine shop can clean them up, do a 3 angle valve job, and maybe gasket match the intake gaskets to the intake ports. They will be respectable, and probably put you fairly close to your target of around 300hp (magic HP # that most of the Merc guy's say an alpha drive lives at and dies over).

The vortec head's them self would probably cost roughly 1.5 times the cost of the machine work of the old heads, for a new pair of factory style castings (good up to .500 lift cam). They will require the correct rocker arms (self aligning), and a Vortec intake manifold. You will need to work with a machine shop to make sure you have a relatively tame compression ratio (i believe most Vortec's have 60-something CC combustion chambers, where as your heads would most likely be 70-76CC combustion chambers), but that's easily changed with correctly matching the pistons and head gaskets to what the CC's are on the heads.

The vortecs with a good marine cam, the stroker, and a low octane friendly compression ratio will probably put you at 10-20HP over 300. You should be able to mitigate damage to the drive with that lever in your right hand while driving. ;)
 

RogersJetboat454

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

:facepalm: OK, I just ran the intake manifold casting number, and it reports back a '76 thru '82 model! Why would Mercruiser put such an old manifold on an "87" engine.
Sounds like something someone added.

Can I use this intake and Quadrajet on Vortec heads, or do I have to scrap them for modern parts? What is an old Q-Jet worth anyway?

Intake, no. You need a Vortec specific intake.
Qjet yes if it's in good shape. Qjet is worth what ever someone will pay for it (not much). It is the king of carbs in my opinion, but requires lots of fine detail to tune it correctly to what it's bolted to. Most people have dubbed it "quadra bog" because they don't have the patience and time to tune it, and instead elect to use a Holley or Edelbrock (Carter style) carb. Tuned correctly It returns better fuel mileage that all other carbs, and crisp secondary performance. How ever, if your's is old and shot, it will need a through rebuild and someone with enough patience and experience to tune it correctly. Or you can get a one-size fits all marine carb from Holley/Edelbrock and call it a day with only the need for a couple of jet changes. ;)
 

Silly Seville

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

Whew! That was a lot of info and very enlightening. I need to digest all of this and start crunching numbers. I found a fellow who was going to GIVE me an '85 4 bolt long block with a mild truck cam in it, but it's a 2 piece rear main of course...so does that mean I am essentially on the march for another short block to start from the ground up with? I really wanted to be able to use as many of the marine and/or existing components that are on the boat as possible. Seems like a 383 stroker is going to require the deletion of many of my current parts to work efficiently and perform as expected. I'm glad I have all winter to determine the best course of action. I'm trying to get the most bang for my buck out of this re-power, because I want to slap a new SEI 106 on the tail end of this beast come spring. Trying to keep total cost below 5K for motor and drive. Am I even being realistic? My labor is always free of course, but the engine machining isn't! :eek:
 

RogersJetboat454

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

Whew! That was a lot of info and very enlightening. I need to digest all of this and start crunching numbers. I found a fellow who was going to GIVE me an '85 4 bolt long block with a mild truck cam in it, but it's a 2 piece rear main of course...so does that mean I am essentially on the march for another short block to start from the ground up with? I really wanted to be able to use as many of the marine and/or existing components that are on the boat as possible. Seems like a 383 stroker is going to require the deletion of many of my current parts to work efficiently and perform as expected. I'm glad I have all winter to determine the best course of action. I'm trying to get the most bang for my buck out of this re-power, because I want to slap a new SEI 106 on the tail end of this beast come spring. Trying to keep total cost below 5K for motor and drive. Am I even being realistic? My labor is always free of course, but the engine machining isn't! :eek:

2 piece RMS block would require you finding the correct flywheel, and I believe you would also need to change the drive coupler to match the 2 piece bolt pattern crank (Merc gurus may know better). If you want to re-use your starter, you would need to find the correctly matched flywheel and hope that the block has been drilled for it.

Lotsa 1 piece blocks out there for cheap.... ;)
Don't know if there is a problem with your original block (I may have missed it), but if it's in good shape and you have all winter, why not stroke it? You know everything will fit.

You should be able to do something with a budget of 5K
 

PBarrett

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

RogersJetboat has provided you with some great information. Now for some more reading material, you might want to peruse this write-up.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0808_383_stroker_small_block_chevy/index.html

Now remember, this information is not a plan for a marine build, but it will give you some idea of what steps are required to build a 383. Just about all 383 build articles are designed for the automotive/hot rod world and do not relate to the marine environment, so when reading, don't think that you need any of the high compression ratios, wild cam profiles, trick rods or other hot rod parts. You want a good solid cruiser engine that can run at 3500 RPM's all day long, without eating itself up. Be conservative on C/R because it looks like we will be burning a 15% or higher ethanol blend in the future. For the same reason, you want to stick with a really good flowing cylinder head (Vortec) and the roller cam setup (free H/P). Also, you don't need a four bolt main block, a two bolt main block works just fine up to about 500 HP. If you plan to do this build yourself, get very familiar with the Summit Racing website as they have pretty much everything you will need. I'm not endorsing Summit, it's just a good source for pricing information. Comparison shopping is your best bet. One last point....be aware that there are some "less than stellar" 383 products out there that come from China, specifically Eagle products. I have seen some that worked fine and others, not so much. For my money I'd be looking at Scat. Just my .02 worth.

Pat
 

RogersJetboat454

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

Nice article PB.

Reading up on the 1 piece RMS strokers, I think it would probably be best to drop off the original flywheel with the machine shop to be sure it's balanced correctly to the new crank, Silly Seville.
 

StevNimrod

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

A few years ago I did what you're thinking about doing - going from a 350 to a 383 in my heavy single engined cruiser.

I learned a few things during and after that might help you along:

First, you will see and feel the extra power, but not like those who have light boats with big engines. I'm glad I did it, but will admit that at first I was a bit underwhelmed. As it turned out my expectations weren't realistic; I didn't fully understand the mechanics of pushing that big a boat across the water, nor did I understand just how much additional power it takes to gain each additional MPH. To be sure, you probably aren't going to pick up 10 MPH at the top. After that realization, I found several things that make me glad to have done the swap: I can now cruise at a lower RPM (and at the same speed as before), my boat doesn't "feel" underpowered, and it is quite bit more responsive to my right hand.

I know all about eyes glazing over as you look over the parts selection. What I ended up with has worked for me so far. YMMV. As mentioned before, you don't need forged pistons. For that matter, you don't need a forged crank either. You will want to keep your compression in check (my machinist said he wouldn't touch anything over 9:1 on a heavy boat, and would really like to see 8.5:1 so that's what we did). I ran the Vortec heads because it's rather cheap horsepower when you're building from scratch (you're going to get the valve job anyway so the only real price difference is the price of the heads). I also used a late model Vortec block (casting #880) - if you can find a long block core and the heads are the right casting number you'll pretty much be able to offset the cost of getting stuff separately, plus you'll be set to run roller lifters.

As far as free stuff - just be careful. The bad economy cuts both ways in that respect. People with junk are actually moving it more easily now because everyone is looking for a steal. And many times that desire to get a bargain clouds sound logic. I have this conversation on an almost weekly basis - people ask how I justify my prices, tell me how much they can get it for elsewhere, then call me back two weeks later when they have a problem. I politely decline; some people's children just aren't worth the brain damage of dealing with. People who have good stuff (and know it's good) aren't as interested in giving it away as cheap as some people think. And it's probably still true that you do get what you pay for. The real interesting thing here is that in a lot of cases free stuff on the front end can end up costing more. Where this really shows up is in the amount of machining your block is going to need. A "free" core can end up costing you a few hundred dollars in extra machine work. Point being, it pays to know what you're buying yourself into when you pick something up.

Probably the most important decision you'll have to make will be your camshaft selection. I got so much varying information that I called a bunch of cam companies. I told them I wanted a cam tailored to the specifics of my system. They continually steered me to their off the shelf cams, and three different ones at that. I finally broke down and got a custom design. That will set you back a couple bills extra, but in my opinion it's money well spent. You know the drill...cut once.

Somebody earlier mentioned rods - if you end up with a Vortec core, those rods are pretty good. Get them resized, which would be as good a time as any to upgrade the bolts. For a few bucks more you can get an aftermarket set, but my machinist had one fail and ever since has refused to use aftermarket rods (at least the ones at that price point). That choice is really comes down to what you're comfortable with.

2 bolt or 4 bolt also comes down to your comfort level. If memory serves, Mercruiser factory 350s are 2 bolt. I think that myth (that all boats are 4 bolt) started on a forum somewhere.

As far as crate vs. machine shop - it has been my experience that for the same money, a reputable machine shop will give better quality end product (in terms of machining, and likely free up some money that can be either saved or put into upgrading parts).

The last thing I learned is that your time most certainly is not free. I hear people say (and I used to subscribe to this), "the only thing I'll be out is my time." I don't know anyone who feels they have too much time in a day; time is typically our most scarce resource. Even when you aren't working, your time spent on this project will come at the expense of something else (sleeping, spending time with friends/family, etc.). Keep that in mind, because when you consider that your time isn't free, you tend to make better decisions about whether you should do something yourself or farm it out. If you still think that your time spent outside of work is "free", I have plenty of projects around here that would benefit from free labor :rolleyes:.

Sorry for the long post, but I remember the long hours I spent with glazed eyes and a spinning head; hopefully I can save you a bit of that.
 

Silly Seville

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

Wow! Once again, thank you everyone for your input. You've given me so much more to ponder than I had imagined. The sheer amount of research into parts compatibility and machine shop requirements are overwhelming me. I had originally come up with the simple idea of buying a Rapid-O 350 long block and dropping it below deck and splashing down...then I remembered long nights with my dad 25+ years ago swapping motors into different cars, trucks and tractors and thinking nostalgically, "what great fun it would be to build my own engine from the oil pan up." After the great responses here, and additional reading elsewhere, I think I may have overestimated my skill set. I have rebuilt several Japanese motorcycle engines on a workbench, and swapped heads on a Ford Explorer V-6, but this is going to be an entirely different experience! StevNimrod...you made such great points and the one that stood out to me the most was the "free labor" or "free time" conflict. You are right, the time laboring over this project will cost me something. Further complicating my decision is the aggravating reality of not having a large garage, air tools, engine moving/lifting equipment, pickup truck, reputable machinist and extra hands available. So once again, I wish to ask everyone here. Given my limits at this stage; (keep in mind I could buy and/or rent all of this stuff over the long winter) do I simply purchase a name brand crate engine, slap on my marine parts and go cruising; or do I start from scratch with an unknown used block, heads and crank, then send it off to an unknown machine shop for re-working? Is the stress of spec'ing out and building my own engine mitigated by the quality that I should expect to receive after it is complete? Is it a sad truth that remanufacturers turn out sloppy work? Will I be paddling a rubber raft to the insane asylum soon? :confused: :eek:
 

FreeBeeTony

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

I purchased a Rapido 350 longblock (Vortec) a few years ago and am very happy with it, just passed 250hrs w/o any problems........but.......

Looking back on it I kinda wish I would have built a 383. I sometimes look online at parts and such for fun. You can get stroker blocks that are already machined for ~$1500 and a stroker kit for maybe $800 then add a cam and heads for maybe another $800 or so......that's ~$3100, I paid ~$1600 for my longblock.......is it worth it? Not sure, could be fun though.

If you decide to do it I look forward to your thread!!!

If I had to do it again (which I hope I don't) I would seriuosly consider a stroker.......nothing crazy, just a stroker block and rotating assembly, Vortec heads and a nice marine cam.

Anyway, just thought I'd add my $0.02.......good luck with anything you decide....
 

RogersJetboat454

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

do I start from scratch with an unknown used block, heads and crank, then send it off to an unknown machine shop for re-working? Is the stress of spec'ing out and building my own engine mitigated by the quality that I should expect to receive after it is complete? Is it a sad truth that remanufacturers turn out sloppy work? Will I be paddling a rubber raft to the insane asylum soon? :confused: :eek:

Ultimately these are questions needed to be answered by you. It sounds like you have a decent technical background to start. Rebuilding a SBC isn't exactly like building a watch, but if you feel more comfortable with someone else doing it, thats fine too.

You have the advantage of having time to ponder what you want to do. I think your next best move would be to find books on building a SBC/383, and pour over them to visualize exactly what you would be getting your self into. Theres LOTS of books on the subject;
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=Small+block+chevy

This one seems to specifically deal with strokers;
http://www.amazon.com/Build-Big-Inc...9860/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314195204&sr=8-1

You don't need a large garage, air tools, or many specialty tools to do this.
A stable engine stand, a moderately sized work bench, socket sizes from 3/8-3/4, a good torque wrench, ring compressors, and maybe a couple of other specialty stuff which could be rented or improvised. Oh, and of course cleanliness and patience is key.

As far as finding a decent machine shop, you could always ask around. Go to car shows, and ask owners who they used for their machine work. You will get a general consensus of what machine shops in your area do good work, and are familiar with building a stroker.

Here's another thing to consider;
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-150100/

Appears all the machine work is done, other than relieving the oil pan rail for the rod bolts. With this block, the machine shops responsibility is the rotating assembly, making sure all clearance issues have been addressed, giving you some idea what to do to get your compression within the target area, and possibly rebuilding a set of heads. I would also have them install the cam bearings, oil galley plugs, and core plugs.

Your crank should be new, and I would recommend getting a complete kit with rods, pistons, rings, etc. Kits start at $700+

You may also want to consider getting a brand new set of vortec's, rather then buying rebuildable cores. Price for new heads would be close to the same as the core + machine work.

Building an engine can be stressful, but rewarding. It's your engine that you are building. To a guy in a re-manufacturing factory, it's just another "face in the crowd". Thats not to say that you can't get a really good engine from a re-manufacturer.

Just my 2?....
 

FreeBeeTony

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

That block from Summit looks like a great deal...........

At one time I contacted a local well known shop and they quoted me ~$800 just for machine work....not including the block!!

I bet you could put that Stroker w/ Vortec heads together for under $2K using that block!!
 

PBarrett

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

Here's another thing to consider;
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-150100/

Appears all the machine work is done, other than relieving the oil pan rail for the rod bolts. With this block, the machine shops responsibility is the rotating assembly, making sure all clearance issues have been addressed, giving you some idea what to do to get your compression within the target area, and possibly rebuilding a set of heads. I would also have them install the cam bearings, oil galley plugs, and core plugs.

I know a few people that purchased that package and it is already clearanced for the rodbolts. Actually, the machine work was done quite well, and when you consider all that you are getting, the price is very reasonable.

That is why I told the OP to get familiar with the Summit catalog. They have a lot more good "stuff" than most people understand.

PB
 

StevNimrod

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Re: 350 to 454 upgrade?

I didn't mean to bring up free labor and free time to dissuade you from doing the project - just to help you realize that neither are actually free and you have to sit down and consider the real costs in order to make a logical decision. A lot of what you end up doing will depend on your general level of involvement with projects - the more involved you like to be, the higher your perception of intangible benefit. I like tinkering, so the only appeal of a crate engine was the price tag. For me, that was outweighed by the benefit of having a winter project (as opposed to relying on the honey-do list), the satisfaction of learning something in detail, and the experience of getting to work on something I'll actually use on a regular basis. Not to mention, I really couldn't justify shopping by price my only realistic means of propulsion.

Books and catalogs are nice, but you'll probably come away with more questions than answers. Ultimately, your machinist will have the most vested interest in not steering you off a cliff when it comes to part selection. Use his expertise. In my experience, he'll also be able to get you the same part cheaper than a Summit will (and I don't live far from Summit). There are also a lot of little "courtesy" things that will make your relationship with your machinist a good one, but we'll get into that later if you decide to build yourself.

It can feel overwhelming at times, but what you might want to develop a method, flow chart, etc. to help guide you from what you want to what you need to get there. As a rule, once a decision is made, try to let it be final. Otherwise you'll go in circles all winter.

It's not necessarily true that remanufacturers turn out sloppy work, it's just that their business model tends to lend itself to sloppier work relative to what an independent builder (or someone with more time) can do. Regardless of what is said, if a business can't capitalize on the difference between good and great, good will do.

You might feel yourself going off the deep end; when you get there just step away for a bit. We can't tell you which way to go, but we can try to help keep you out of the rubber raft once you pick your path.
 
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