4.3 vortec

wateroverroad

Recruit
Joined
Jul 6, 2009
Messages
4
Re: 4.3 vortec

Ok just one point this may not be along sme lines bu to well

In the ford engines marine vs auto the cam is difernt
when i rebuild my 302 ford i repaced the stock cam with a ford marine cam the lift and duration was different it gave me a litte more hp So i have to agree parts are different
 

mylesm260

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
444
Re: 4.3 vortec

Sorry Bubba1235, but you are dead wrong. Their are major differences in the rotating assembly. I've had both in my hands side by side for comparison and measurements. Read my post above.



Scipper77, you are right. There are differences in the camshaft profiles as well, although very slight. The marine cam provides a little more low end torque than the truck/van camshaft. But not a big difference.

You could very easily have been looking at different years of internals.

My experience is that the marine internals are usually 1 generation old vs the same year of automotive internals.

For example, was the marine engine an odd-fire and the automotive engine and even fire? the cranks in those cases are going to be vastly different.
 

Fix'em

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
42
Re: 4.3 vortec

Granted there will some differences from one year to the next, but I can attest to the fact that the internals are marine spec. For example, I had 1 blown piston, and when I searched to get a match to only replace the one, the GM dealer confirmed that that particular casting is specific to marine and was a special order. I ended up getting an entire new set of pistons. It was easier and quicker, but again, the aftermarket replacements were specific to the marine application in the listings. They are thicker around the wrist pin area and have much wider grooves for heavier rings.

Also, the machine shop that turned my crank is a GM engine specialist and he is the one that pointed out the differences to me between the marine and truck cranks. I had brought both to him to see which was the better candidate for my rebuild.

Although the truck spec. stuff will probably hold up just fine for most, it cannot be said that they are the same. This is one of those old myths that people tend to regurgitate over and over and it keeps spreading. The fact that people have used them before with success is why this keeps coming up.
 

mkast

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Nov 6, 2002
Messages
1,934
Re: 4.3 vortec

WOW! I scanned through the replies above quickly and from what I see there are some major misconceptions out there about this. It is apparent most who voice their opinions have not actually opened up these motors to compare the parts side-by-side.

I don't doubt you disassembled two different 4.3 engines.
The statements I made didn't come from disassembling 4.3's.
To the best of your knowledge your statements are true.
The statements I made came from Mercruiser's engineering department.
According to the people in that department, the engine Mercruiser sells are right off the 4.3, 5.7 or 7.4 assembly line.
Now, ever work in a production assembly environment? Here how it works, on the first day of production, XXX parts go into the engine. By the 1,000,000 engine, GM's engineering department has decided to change the specifications/supplier on lets say 100 of the parts used in said engine.
The new parts being used will enter production whenever the stock of old parts is exhausted. That can be at any time. Do you see a mix of different parts enter any given engine, at any given time?
By the time the 10,000,000 engine comes off the line how much do you think it will resemble the first engine? Example, I know if I balance the engine, it will operate smoother than the factory engine. Why doesn't the factory balance the engine to the degree I do? Money. The same holds true in regard to the engine parts, I'm going to make 20,000,000 of these engines for my vehicle assembly plants. Then of course the are the boat industries the generator industries and numerous other companies that will use the engine. I can supply a 4.3 that will meet XXX specification. As the list grows, subtle changes are made to meet the specifications. The bottom line is, if I can save $0.50 per engine, I just saved $10,000,000. So I'm sure you saw different parts in your two engines. I wouldn't be a all surprised if they were built on the same day, get the point.
Now, there are some "Mercruiser Techs" cruising this forum. One insisted that the marine pistons were forged steel. When shown the light, his retort was, "They are alloy pistons, an alloy piston has "some steel" in them, that's why they are called alloy."
One claimed the high nickle content in the cylinder block, and heads.
I don't doubt these individuals think the information they have is correct.
My first boat was titled as a 1987, the casting number on the engine block means it was assemblied in January 1986 ???
I believe the guys at Mercruiser, and the GM casting numbers used in the Mercruiser engines I've disassembled. As far as any internal part I've pulled out of a Mercruiser engine, every one is an off the shelf GM part.
One other piece of information. Some people think Mercruiser dropped Ford as an engine supplier. The truth is Ford dropped Mercruiser. In the business world, if you can produce an engine that will meet or exceed the horsepower specifications from Mercruiser in quantity, for less money than GM, Mercruiser would buy the engines from you.
 

Jscheehl

Recruit
Joined
Jun 22, 2009
Messages
3
Re: 4.3 vortec

Here are my 2 cents.....I have a 1990 Four Winns with the 4.3 cobra in it. When i bought it 8 years ago, it had the same issue. Cracked water jackets, dumping water into the lifter valley (toasted engine) So i figured the same, ill get an engine from a Jimmy or somethin and throw it in there. After a ton of research and some parts swapping, I ended up getting an engine with 12k miles out of a flipped 1996 Jimmy. It was a "vortec" engine and looked in great shape. The old engine was the NON-vortec. No balance shaft, mechanical fuel pump, etc. So keeping it short, here is what i had to do.

Heads, lifters need to come off the marine engine and will bolt right up to a vortec block. all the accessory holes line up as well. The intake wasn't an issue for me since i changed the heads over. IF you keep the automotive heads (which i wouldn't see much of a problem with except the springs are visibly weaker, indicitive of a lower RPM motor) you will need a different intake, the bolt pattern is different. The oil pan, timing cover and all that jazz will stay with the new vortec engine. If your engine is the older style and carb supplied, you will need an electric pump for fuel. The harmonic balancer in my case was different. So i used the one from the marine engine and have had no issues. I also used the marine flywheel since the vortec didnt come with one. I was worried at first about balance issues but it has been running smooth as silk since day one. 387 hrs later and it still gets that 21' cuddy to 41 MPH at 5500feet and 4650 RPM.

SO all in all, it can be done, and yes they can last just as long as any typical "marine" counterpart.
 

mylesm260

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
444
Re: 4.3 vortec

Another thing to keep in mind:

The 4.3 is a Frankensteined engine to begin with.

By design (for proper balancing) a V6 should be 60 degrees, not 90.

The 4.3 was derived by hacking 2 cylinders off a 350, they did this to be able to use a lot of the same tooling.

At first they didn't even bother to charge the firing order to be evenly spaced, so the early generation 4.3's were odd fire (kind of like a harley V-twin)

Later, they added balance shafts to try and fix this balancing issue as well.

So it makes perfect sense to see two motors with different balancing on the crank, and it makes perfect sense to see different crank designs over-time. GM was constantly making tweaks to try and balance this "unbalanced by design" motor.

If you look up the specs on any modern V6, they're all 60 degrees for a reason.

From wikipedia

Balance and smoothness

Due to the odd number of cylinders in each bank, V6 designs are inherently unbalanced, regardless of their V-angle. All straight engines with an odd number of cylinders suffer from primary dynamic imbalance, which causes an end-to-end rocking motion. Each cylinder bank in a V6 has an odd number of pistons, so the V6 also suffers from the same problem unless steps are taken to mitigate it. In the horizontally-opposed flat-6 layout the rocking motions of the two straight-3 cylinder banks offset each other, while in the inline-6 layout, the two ends of engine are mirror images of each other and compensate every rocking motion. Concentrating on the first order rocking motion, the V6 can be assumed to consist of two separate straight-3 where counterweights on the crankshaft and a counter rotating balancer shaft compensate the first order rocking motion. At mating, the angle between the banks and the angle between the crankshafts can be varied so that the balancer shafts cancel each other completely and the counter weights cancel each other to some degree. Two examples are the odd firing 90? V6 (larger counter weights) and the even firing 60? V6 with 60? flying arms (smaller counter weights. The second order rocking motion can be balanced by a single co-rotating balancer shaft.).

This is almost the same technique which balances an even firing 90? crossplane V8 in primary and secondary order. A 90? V8 is in primary balance because each 4-cylinder bank is in primary balance, and the secondary vibrations of the two banks can be made to cancel each other using a crossplane crankshaft. However, there is no equivalent of the V8 crossplane crankshaft for the V6, so that the vibrations from the two banks cannot be made to completely cancel each other. This makes designing a smooth V6 engine a much more complicated problem than the straight-6, flat-6, and V8 layouts. Although the use of offset crankpins, counterweights, and flying arms has reduced the problem to a minor second-order vibration in modern designs, all V6s can benefit from the addition of auxiliary balance shafts to make them completely smooth.[5]

When Lancia pioneered the V6 in 1950, they used a 60? angle between the cylinder banks and a six-throw crankshaft to achieve equally spaced firing intervals of 120?. This still has some balance and secondary vibration problems. When Buick designed a 90? V6 based on their 90? V8, they initially used a simpler three-throw crankshaft laid out in the same manner as the V8 with pairs of connecting rods sharing the same crankpin, which resulted in firing intervals alternating between 90? and 150?. This produced a rough-running design which was unacceptable to many customers. Later, Buick and other manufacturers refined the design by using a split-pin crankshaft which achieved a regular 120? firing interval by staggering adjacent crankpins by 15? in opposite directions to eliminate the uneven firing and make the engine reasonably smooth.[6] Some manufacturers such as Mercedes Benz have taken the 90? design a step further by adding a balancing shaft to offset the primary vibrations and produce an almost fully balanced engine.

Some designers have reverted to a 60? angle between cylinder banks, which produces a more compact engine, but have used three-throw crankshafts with flying arms between the crankpins of each throw to achieve even 120? angles between firing intervals. This has the additional advantage that the flying arms can be weighted for balancing purposes.[6] This still leaves an unbalanced primary couple, which is offset by counterweights on the crankshaft and flywheel to leave a small secondary couple, which can be absorbed by carefully designed engine mounts.[7]

Six-cylinder designs are also more suitable for larger displacement engines than four-cylinder ones because power strokes of pistons overlap. In a four-cylinder engine, only one piston is on a power stroke at any given time. Each piston comes to a complete stop and reverses direction before the next one starts its power stroke, which results in a gap between power strokes and noticeable vibrations. In a six-cylinder engine (other than odd-firing V6s), the next piston starts its power stroke 60? before the previous one finishes, which results in smoother delivery of power to the flywheel. In addition, because inertial forces are proportional to the cube of the piston mass and the square of the piston speed, high-speed six-cylinder engines will suffer less stress and vibration than four-cylinder ones of equal displacement.[8]

Comparing engines on the dynamometer, a typical even-fire V6 shows instantaneous torque peaks of 150% above mean torque and valleys of 125% below mean torque, with a small amount of negative torque (engine torque reversals) between power strokes. On the other hand, a typical four-cylinder engine' shows peaks of nearly 300% above mean torque and valleys of 200% below mean torque, with 100% negative torque being delivered between strokes. In contrast, a V8 engine shows peaks of less than 100% above and valleys of less than 100% below mean torque, and torque never goes negative. The even-fire V6 thus ranks between the four and the V8, but closer to the V8, in smoothness of power delivery. An odd-fire V6, on the other hand, shows highly irregular torque variations of 200% above and 175% below mean torque, which is significantly worse than an even-fire V6, and in addition the power delivery shows large harmonic vibrations that have been known to destroy the dynamometer.[9]

[edit] V angles
Chrysler 3.3 In LH form

[edit] 60 degrees

The most efficient cylinder bank angle for a V6 is 60 degrees, which design is very compact and tends to minimize vibrations. While they are not as well balanced as inline-6 and flat-6 engines, modern techniques for designing and mounting engines have largely disguised their vibrations. Unlike most other angles, 60 degree V6 engines can be made acceptably smooth without the need for balance shafts. When Lancia pioneered the 60? V6 in 1950, they used a 6-throw crankshaft to give equal firing intervals of 120?. However, more modern designs often use a 3-throw crankshaft with what are termed flying arms between the crankpins, which not only give the required 120? separation but also can be used for balancing purposes. Combined with a pair of heavy counterweights on the crankshaft ends, these can eliminate all but a modest secondary imbalance which can easily be damped out by the engine mounts.[1]

This configuration is a good fit in cars which are too big to be powered by four-cylinder engines, but for which compactness and low cost are important. The most common 60? V6s were built by General Motors (the heavy duty commercial models, as well as a design used in many GM front wheel drive cars) and Ford European subsidiaries (Essex V6, Cologne V6 and the more recent Duratec V6). Other 60? V6 engines are the Chrysler 3.3 V6 engine, Nissan VQ engine and the Alfa Romeo V6 engine.

[edit] 90 degrees

90-degree V6 engines are also produced, usually so they can use the same production-line tooling set up to produce V8 engines (which normally have a 90-degree V angle). Although it is relatively easy to derive a 90-degree V6 from an existing V8 design by simply cutting two cylinders off the engine, this tends to make it wider and more vibration-prone than a 60-degree V6. The design was first used by Buick when it introduced its 198 CID Fireball V6 as the standard engine in the 1962 Special. Other examples include the Maserati V6 used in the Citro?n SM, the PRV V6, Chevrolet's 4.3 L Vortec 4300 and Chrysler's 3.9 L (238 cu in) Magnum V6 and 3.7 L (226 cu in) PowerTech V6. The Buick V6 was notable because it introduced the concept of uneven firing, as a result of using the 90 degree V8 cylinder angle without adjusting the crankshaft design for the V6 configuration. These engines were often referred to by mechanics as "shakers," due to the tendency of the engine to bounce around at idle speed. More modern 90-degree V6 engine designs avoid these vibration problems by using crankshafts with offset split crankpins to make the firing intervals even, and often add balancing shafts to eliminate the other vibration problems. An example is the 90-degree Mercedes-Benz V6 which, although designed to be built on the same assembly lines as the V8, uses split crankpins, a counter-rotating balancing shaft, and careful acoustic design to make it as smooth and quiet as the inline-6 it replaced.
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,096
Re: 4.3 vortec

I just installed a rebuilt 4.3L two days ago using a 4.3 block from a 97 Astro van, but, it was ONLY the block that I used and this is why.

Ayuh,... And exactly what Vintage is this boat motor,..?? 97,..??

In My years of experince,... Your conclusions are Wrong...

Even though your Facts are right...

Mkast's post pretty much Nails the reality of it....

Btw,.... Anybodyelse here feel like Crying when you pull a Vortec head,...
Only to see Dished pistons.....
Without the Quench factor,... Vortecs are Just another head...:rolleyes:
 
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