4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

cpjxh7

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Jul 5, 2004
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Hi everyone. I've got a big problem and would sure appreciate any and all help. I have a 1997 Larson SEI186, 4.3ltr GL, 2 brl holley carb, Volvo SX Cobra out drive.<br /><br />I took the boat out of storage and ran in the driveway for 15-20 minutes with the motor muffs. No problems, started right up, idled fine and no obvious problems. Took it out for the first time, backed down the landing and when it started it missed and sputtered like crazy. Eventually after trying to start a number of times the motor would not turn over. Thought it was the battery so brought it home and discovered that was not the issue, but discovered a large amount of water in the #5 and #6 cylinders (both rear). Water poured out. Also had some in #6 (front right) just a trickle. Does not look like there is any water in the crankcase. The water that drained out was clean and did not look like river water. Also never been in salt water.<br /><br />So I pulled all the plugs, turned the engine over, sprayed fogging oil in all cylinders and repeated a number of times. Put new plugs in and tried to start just to make sure all was well. I pulled the tether cord thinking this would prevent the coil from burning out. Even though I'm not exactly sure where the water is coming from yet, just wanted to hear it run and circulate some oil. Now the motor will start, but then kills right away. It will continue to run if the key is held to run. I pulled the fuel filter and looked ok, as far as I can tell anyway. I ordered a new one and will pick it up today. Fuel looked ok and smelled like gas, so don't think there is water in the fuel. The water that came out of the cylinders did not smell of gas. I dumped the gas out of the filter and reinstalled. Could this have burned out the fuel pump if it ran dry while it was trying to re-prime?<br /><br />It was winterized properly as I have done over the past years. I live in MN so I make sure it's done correctly. When the oil was drained last season, there were no signs water.<br /><br />I've researched all the post with similar problems, but just wanted to make sure I've got it down. Since there was water on both sides, does the pretty much rule out heads, head gaskets, block? Suppose it could be intake gasket. Would not be likely that both sides went at the same time. But then does not seem likely that both risers and manifolds go bad at the same time either. Why both side at the same time?<br /><br />Should I start with a compression test, followed by removing the exhaust manifold and risers and having them pressure checked?<br /><br />Also what happened to keep the engine from running? Is some sensor grounding out the coil? Is the run side of the coil bad? Ignition switch? <br /><br />Why did everything happen at the same time? Is it possible to over fill the engine when running with motor muffs? The bow is always elevated higher than the stern. Would think the bow would have to be tilted way lower that the stern to get water into the exhaust ports. Doesn't even seem possible while on the trailer.<br /><br />Sorry for such a long post, just wanted to give all the info and questions that are running through my head. Sure appreciate any help. Thanks for reading.
 

motox6

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Apr 4, 2004
Messages
85
Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

Possibly but doubtful on the head gaskets, how about the exhaust risers on your exhuast manifolds? if they are not sealing properly then you would get water in your cylinders as well.
 

Blk-n-Blu

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May 12, 2004
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821
Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

Cp, Check out this concerning "Water in Engine"<br /> http://www.marinemechanic.com/site/page88.html <br />Also you mentioned pulling the tether and I assume you have put it back in because pulling it would ground the + side of the coil and there would be no voltage to run the ignition
 

cpjxh7

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Jul 5, 2004
Messages
43
Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

Thanks for the quick responses.<br /><br />motox6 - My plan was to first pull off the risers and check the gaskets and see if there are any signs of leakage. Never had one apart, so not sure what to look for other than the obvious. But I'm still hung up on the question of why both sides at the same time? Just would seem unlikely. Wondering/hoping there is something I did to cause the problem.<br /><br />Blk-n-Blu - Thanks for the link. Good info. Yes I did re-connect the tether. The engine does run, but only for a second or two, then dies.
 

Blk-n-Blu

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821
Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

Cp, is the outdrive in the full down position?<br /> You could try to hotwire the ignition by putting 12Volts to the + side of the coil and starting with the key. is there an Ignition Fuse in the fusebox or a main breaker on the engine where the harness plugs in? Perhaps the tether cutoff is bad try bypassing it.
 

cpjxh7

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Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

Well did a little work tonight. Pulled the risers and exhaust manifolds. The water that drained out of the manifolds was brown (both sides). Do you think this was just rusty water? <br /><br />Risers and manifolds appear ok. I turned them upside down and filled with water and did not see any leakage. I know this is not the best way to test, but just wanted to see. <br /><br />However the gasket between the manifolds and risers looked suspect. The exhaust passage makes a rectangle inside the water jacket and the gaskets on each had an entire long side of the rectangle closest to the exhaust passage that did not look as shiny as the rest of the gasket. Is this an indication that water was leaking into the exhaust manifold there? <br /><br />Blk-n-Blu - Yes the outdrive is in full down position. I've check all the fuses and reset all the circuit breakers. When I take the tether out the engine just cranks, when I put it back in it starts but dies right away. Can the coil be checked when the key is on in run to see if there is voltage? Not sure how to go about putting 12 volts to the + side of the coil. Can you give me a little more information? Is it possible that some sensor is shutting down the engine? Too much oil pressure, not enough oil pressure? Possible that there is internal engine damage?<br /><br />Thanks again for all the help.
 

jlshields

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Aug 31, 2002
Messages
257
Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

cpj, when you launched did you hit the water pretty fast. If so it's possible you backed water up the Y pipe into the manifolds and cylinders. Just a thought since it's the 2 rear ones.
 

cpjxh7

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Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

jlshields - I never got it off the trailer. Backed down the landing which is at a pretty good angle but not an extreme. Lowered the lower unit and started the engine to back it off the trailer. That’s when it started missing a sputtering. The water that came from the cylinders was clean, therefore I think the damage was done while in the driveway on the motor muffs.<br /><br />Really a mystery to me, why both side at the same time with no signs leading up to it.<br /><br />Thanks!
 

Blk-n-Blu

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May 12, 2004
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821
Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

cp, When you turn the key to the "on" position you should be able to measure voltage on the + side of the coil ( 9 to 10 vdc) to a ground (motor or - battery)<br />When the key is turned to "start" the coil should have 12 vdc to activate the relay to the solenoid.<br />If you don't have any volts on the pos+side with the key on the motor wont stay running when you let go of the key."hotwire" jump a wire from a known 12V lead to the + coil ( maybe the elec choke wire) You may hav a resistance wire in the harness that burned up when the starter failed.
 

cpjxh7

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Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

Ok.. one problem solved. Traced the wire from the tether switch back a ways. Found bad spot in the wire. Cut and spliced and problem gone. Lesson learned... as always look for the small stuff before jumping to big conclusions.<br /><br />Blk-n_Blu -- still not sure how to test the coil. Is it possible with CD ignition? I have two wire connectors that snap into the coil. One connector has 2 wires (brn and pink) that go to the module on the distributor and snap in with another connector. The other connector has two wire (gray and a larger purple) that feed into a wiring harness. I assume the larger purple wire is the start side of the coil to handle the full 12v. Just wanted to know incase I need it in the future. I should know more about this once my manual comes in. Currently on order.<br /><br />My plans are to re-install the exhaust manifolds and risers with new gaskets, hook it up to the muffs and run for a while in the driveway. Pull the plugs and check for water. If I don't find any I'll let it sit for a day with block and water jackets full of water and pull plugs again to look for water. Hopeful at this point and no water found I will take it out and lake test. Once again checking for water periodically while on the water.<br /><br />Sound like a good plan?<br /><br />Anyone know the torque specs and sequence for the exhaust manifolds and risers?<br /><br />Is it absolutely necessary to replace the exhaust manifold gaskets? I probably know the answer, but thought I'd ask anyway. It's not that there expensive, just easier to not have to clean the surfaces. <br /><br />Thanks everyone for your help!
 

Blk-n-Blu

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821
Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

cp, if you think you found the fault in the ignition wiring I wouldn't worry about the coil, but here just in case:<br /> http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51465 <br />Yes-need manifold gaskets to seperate water passages from exhaust passages Yes should be clean surfaces, they are just like head gaskets in that respect and are marine gaskets.Be sure to check that all passages have the proper gasket opening accounted for
 

cpjxh7

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Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

Blk-n-Blu - thanks for the link. Just to clarify, I realize I need to replace the riser to exhaust manifold gasket, but was questioning if it's absolutely necessary to replace the exhaust manifold gaskets (where they bolt up to the block). The only thing the exhaust manifold (to block) gaskets do is keep exhaust from leaking between the exhaust port and manifold. There is no water exchange between the exhaust manifold water jacket and block. Worst case if not replaced would be exhaust leak in the motor compartment. Anyway, I picked up both sets of gaskets and will do it the right way. <br /><br />I have pictures of the riser to manifold gaskets if anyone would like me to email to them to see what they look like and if they agree that this is where the water is coming from.<br /><br />Thanks.
 

yoced

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Oct 8, 2003
Messages
142
Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

You are correct cp about the manifold to head gaskets - change is not absolutely necessary. But as long as you are there, it is almost always better to do so.<br /><br />I would love to see the pictures of the riser gaskets, if you could email them to yoced at fast dot net.<br /><br />Your torque is going to be based on bolt diameter; those 3/8 bolts should be good for 30-35 pounds. Sequence won't matter as long as it is even - do all to 20, then 25 etc if you want to be really careful.
 

motox6

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Apr 4, 2004
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Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

Don't forget plenty of OMC gasket sealing compound...
 

Wellcraft 89

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Aug 5, 2002
Messages
158
Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

Is the water in cylinders problem solved?<br />The interesting thing is when you said the water that you drained out was rusty. usually takes awhile for the rust to start. If you continue to get water in cylinders,you may have a crack in the head or block from being frozen,I've seen this happen quite alot people think they get all the water out when winterizing.What happens is sand and scale build up within the block and heads and they don't drain completely.<br />I hope this is not your problem<br /><br />Rich
 

cpjxh7

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Jul 5, 2004
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Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

Well got the riser gaskets, they are supposedly new and improved as they now come as a kit. What you used to be able to buy for $4.53 each now is a kit with both gaskets and an instruction manual in 6 different languages for $18. And they are different. Instructions say:<br /><br />"Kit Purpose - New gaskets have been introduced to seal the exhaust risers to the exhaust manifolds on V6 and V8 engines. The installation of the new gaskets is different than the previous gaskets. The new gaskets are only sold as a kit to insure that installation instructions are provided whenever the gaskets are used".... "Note! Do not use any sealant on the riser gasket."<br /><br />Instructions specify sanding riser mating surfaces with 80 grit sandpaper and a sanding block. And torquing riser bolts in a crossing pattern to 30 ft lbs making at least two passes to insure proper torque.<br /><br />Have specs from the dealer for torque spec on exhaust manifold nuts, said to make a couple passes starting from inside working out with a final torque of 20-25 ft lbs. This does not seem like much. Anyone agree/disagree?<br /><br />When everyone recommends gasket sealer, is it just for the exhaust manifold gaskets? Dealer specified putting on dry. Anyone agree/disagree?<br /><br />What about loctite on threads. If so both the riser bolts and exhausts manifold nuts? How about on the exhaust manifold studs where they thread into the block? (3 pulled out when removing the manifold)<br /><br />Thanks again everyone!
 

cpjxh7

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Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

Wellcraft 89 -- Hopefully will know more Friday night. Kid has soccer tonight so will not be able to re assemble until then. Since the riser gaskets are "new and improved" hoping this is where the problem was. It did look like the old gaskets were leaking, but I can't tell for sure.<br /><br />The water that was rusty was the water in the exhaust manifold water jacket, not the water that came out of the cylinder. After thinking about this, guess it would not seem that uncommon as this is the first time the boat has run since putting into storage last year. <br /><br />No chance that is was not winterized incorrectly. I drain all water form both sides of the block, both lower water pump hoses, risers, etc... and refill with antifreeze the same as I've done every year since I've owned the boat.<br /><br />Thanks for the post.
 

steve n carol

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May 8, 2004
Messages
459
Re: 4.3L water in # 5 & 6 cyl and now won't stay running

cp, when you repeat the curcumstances that led to water in the cyls, be careful that you don't bend a connecting rod by means of hydrolock. I am supposing that the exhaust exists through the outdrive on this. I read another post tonight, a new one, of hydrolock on a big boat in Ontario. you should check it out...sl
 
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