4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

[rayjay]

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

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I will tell you where the oil goes. It gets recycled.

Don't believe it. I have a riding buddy that retired from the GA EPD { environmental protection division }. He said that most used oil from the Atlanta area went to concrete plants in Alabama. There it's burned and put into the atmosphere.

 

[Jason S in WA]

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

Originally posted by rayjay:<br />

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I will tell you where the oil goes. It gets recycled.

Don't believe it. I have a riding buddy that retired from the GA EPD { environmental protection division }. He said that most used oil from the Atlanta area went to concrete plants in Alabama. There it's burned and put into the atmosphere.

The company I work for out here in WA State uses recycled oil for all oil changes for all company vehicles. My father in law owns a Express Lube (Texaco Type). All oil from oil changes is sold (Yes I said sold) to a oil recycler. They purify it centfrifugally to remove impurities and water. Then it is tested for viscosity and resold under a generic recycled brand to wholesalers and fleet managers. Yes some is used for building roads I will agree to that but it is not "burned" as you say. It is a componant of ashphalt. Maybe you should investigate a little more from your riding buddy. Also ask him about stack scrubbers and what they remove from the exhaust of any plant. It is amazing all the more a commercial type coal/oil/natural gas plant is allowed to release to the environment.<br /><br />As to the post above. Torque is torque. HP is purely a function of torque over time. Or how fast a motor can accellerate. Torque is in a measurable unit. To calculate HP=RPM X Torque/5252 . Any motor at 5252RPMs will have equal HP and Torque numbers. HP is also measureable on a dyno but it is calculated from Torque.<br /><br />Another way to look at it is torque is the function of how much work an engine can do. HP is how fast it can do that work.

 

[winoandino]

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

Jason,<br />What do you expect the 4-S engines to do about CO emmissions? Now that a 2-S has matched the 4-S on the FEL emmissions how will 4-S catch up with the CO levels of a 2-S? <br /><br />I glad you think all changed oil from 4-S engines is recycled, but I can tell you that is just not the case. Studies by the EPA show only a small percentage is recycled most is burned by large plants or dumped out back by Joe Mechanic when no one is looking. One way or another much of it ends up in the environment.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

E-tecs inject oil at the bearings and other lub points so very little oil ever reaches the combustion chamber because fuel and oil are not mixed and injected. Any excess is recycycled. Four strokes will eventually need catalytic converters to match E-tecs emissions. Idle speed can also be set much slower than on other engines (either two stroke or four). 500 RPM is commonly used by those who troll much of the time and can be set by the dealer with a laptop. E-tecs in the 40 - 70 HP ranges have 2.67:1 gear ratios which permits lower trolling RPM. Stare at the key and these engines start and idle. Remarkable engineering has gone into these engines and after two years there are no problems. There have undoubtedly been some odd problems that pop up but nothing on the order of those with the early FICHTS, OPTI's, and HPDI's.

 

[Jason S in WA]

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

Much as I looked at emmisons testing I could not find where ANY body cared about Co emmisons. Last (from less than 5 minutes ago) I checked the only one who gave a crap was Evinrude. They are they only ones who talk a lot about it. As far as EPA they care about NOX and HC. Well four strokes are 50% more efficient. Anyone care to comment or post threads talking otherwise. Plants consume CO and CO2. They Use photosythisise (SP? drank a beer too many) to convert to O2. Well is that a bad thing? Only bad article I could find on the web is from "teak surfing", well if your dumb enough to do that well maybe you deserve it after all-for years we depended on natural selection to improve on genetics. Someone show me why and when the EPA is going to care about CO. Maybe I will buy into the "HYPE" that Envirude has created then and spend $4000 more for a motor than an HPDI or about equal for a Verado that is WAYYYYYYYY Cleaner according to the EPA, 15 combined HC+NOX in the Merc 275 Verado compared to a 22 combined HC+NOX in the 75 Rude E-Tec. All things given for fuel conserved a smaller motor will burn less and exhaust les. The 225 is 300 timews larger but puts out 33% LESS GREENE HOUSE GASSES. That is what RIGHT NOW the EPA cares about. I say Four Strokes Win.<br /><br />Prove on the web with links about CO besides what the Evinrude site says about CO or the endorsement from Coast Guard so that we can not undergo the natural selection process for "Teak Surfing". I for one do not like the smell of two stroke oil burning in the morning, nor the haze of blue next to the boat on a foggy day from my boat warming up at the dock. That Verado 175 is looking Great.

 

[Paul Moir]

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

I don't want to be too argumentative here, but are you seriously comparing a 275hp Merc to a 75hp E-Tec? <br /><br />Wouldn't a 250 E-Tec be more compareable, at 10.6 g/kw-h? Maybe I'm just confused though, afterall the only 75hp E-Tec numbers I can find at CARB has it at 12.3 g/kw-h certified combined emmissions.

 

[olm]

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

just ran my twin e-tech 250's this weekend, WOW.<br />you guys keep the four strokes, if these things hold up they are just what the doctor ordered. and @ 14,000.00 per motor& 7 year warranty. forget abouth it.

 

[winoandino]

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

Jason dude, what are you smoking??? I know you sport wood for a 4-Stroke, but don't you think you should at least drive an engine before you write it off?<br /><br />I'm sure no one at the EPA or CARB cares anything about CO that is why they don't regulate cars. . . oh wait a minute they do regulate cars so maybe some people DO care about CO. Maybe with your astutit engineering backgroung Mercury will hire you to make a cytaltic converter to work on the Verado. What the heck, that thing needs a few more parts anyway not like it is already heavy or anything. You crack me up!!!<br /><br />BTW, it really must chap your a$$ that the E-Tecs get better fuel economy that your Verado, and I KNOW that is something most people care about.

 

[jegervais]

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

See the second paragraph under "Lower Emissions"<br /><br /> http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/feb05/303027.asp <br /><br />-John

 

[rayjay]

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

You know, when I started this thread what I really had in mind was repair costs in the event of a catastrophic topend failure When you start buying cams and valves and rockers and 4stroke cyl heads you better have deep pockets. With a 2stroke you buy pistons and bore the cyls.<br /><br />Somewhere I may still have some bean oil. Love the smell of burning caster oil.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

Dont start about the cytaltic converters. The EPA has wanted them on I/O's and inboards for years. Indmar was showing their proto type at Miami. Once they're in place on I/O's and inboards, outboards will be next.

 

[winoandino]

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

That is my point. Cytaltic converters are needed on 4-Strokes and I have no doubt they will be developed and work one day. But more parts are not what an outboard, espically an already heavy 4-Stroke, needs. <br /><br />The new E-Tec is already there with no extra parts and has extremely low CO emmissions.

 

[Jason S in WA]

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

Originally posted by winoandino:<br /> Jason dude, what are you smoking??? I know you sport wood for a 4-Stroke, but don't you think you should at least drive an engine before you write it off?<br /><br />I'm sure no one at the EPA or CARB cares anything about CO that is why they don't regulate cars. . . oh wait a minute they do regulate cars so maybe some people DO care about CO. Maybe with your astutit engineering backgroung Mercury will hire you to make a cytaltic converter to work on the Verado. What the heck, that thing needs a few more parts anyway not like it is already heavy or anything. You crack me up!!!<br /><br />BTW, it really must chap your a$$ that the E-Tecs get better fuel economy that your Verado, and I KNOW that is something most people care about.

Read above a little bit. I currently have a 150 Optimax hanging off the back off my boat with a 200 HDPI on order. So I have nothing for or against any motor including the E-tec. What I do have against a lot of stuff is people spouting wrong information due to a hyped up ad campain. If you want one buy one. By the way don't go knocking on heavy motors because for a two stroke that E-tec is a tad overweight compared to a lot of others in its size. Plus you have to throw in the premium being paid for them over even a four stroke. <br /><br />As to emissions here is strait from the EPA on what the legal numbers are for automobiles. With the new low emmisons vehicals coming out I think the trend will be towards cleaner technology everywhere and it is a great thing.<br /><br /> http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/veh-cert/b00001a.pdf <br /><br />You are correct they care about CO on an automobile. But a Cat converts it to carbon Dioxide. But the big greenhouse gas is still THC and NOX. Niether of these styles of motors come even close to meeting the automobile standards but the four stroke is a lot closer. It is a give and take deal. Throw some emmisons equipment on a four stroke and they will still be in business as the technology for the removal of this stuff is all ready in place. Up until now no one has cared about the two stroke being clean. We have no emissions equipemtn for it other than to make it cleaner burning. It will be a new game when and only if even stricter rules get put in place.<br /><br />Both technologies are great but with in limits, never have I touted one above the other.

 

[rayjay]

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72132 <br /><br />How much more did this repair cost versus the same trouble on a 2stroke? Double? Triple? Also, I would be damned surprised if the cam brg bores were straight. Places that repair warped alloy OHC car heads go throught a lot of rigamarol heating and tweaking the heads to get the cam bore straight and only then do they machine the gasket surface flat.

 

[winoandino]

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

RJ,<br /><br />To your original question I would say most of todays 4-Strokes are not engines you would want to repair if they have a major problem. For the cost of repair you can almost buy a new one.

 

[jegervais]

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

Guys, <br /><br />Some points to ponder, no flaming or bashing intended here.<br /><br />

Niether of these styles of motors come even close to meeting the automobile standards but the four stroke is a lot closer.

Assuming you mean outboards of the 4-stroke & 2-stroke DI variety... Not neccessarily, there are 2 different measurements: On-road vehicle emissions are measure in grams per mile (gr/mi), while outboard engine emissions are measure in grams per kilowatthour (gr/kwHr). If somebody knows how to convert one measurement to the other, an accurate comparison can then be made.<br /><br />

Throw some emmisons equipment on a four stroke and they will still be in business as the technology for the removal of this stuff is all ready in place.

Maybe. Current Cat technology is dependant on high temps. Current outboards (2-stroke & 4-stroke) run water through their exhaust systems. Until the technology is developed (cooler, smaller??) I don't think we'll see Cats on outboards any time soon.<br /><br />Someone told me about a month ago that Merc had developed and would introduce an outboard cat technology in Miami it turned out to be for stern drive. See the link I posted earlier. <br /><br />I won't be surprised when someone does develop the system. In fact an aquaintance of mine who once worked as a Yamaha service rep said Yami started working on cats for outboards in the late 80's/early 90's. The challenge for outboard motors will likely be developing a small, light-weight, cool running and inexpensive to produce system.<br /><br />

Up until now no one has cared about the two stroke being clean.

Because of legislation, the EPA & CARB started caring and mandated compliance beginning in 1998. The EU directive (Europe) which limits emissions more strictly, I believe was in effect even sooner. Engine manufacturers had to begin working on solutions for compliance long before it was scheduled to take effect.<br /><br />

It will be a new game when and only if even stricter rules get put in place.

That's quite true and IMHO will be here before we know it.