4 stroke vs DFI

[seahorse5]

Re: 4 stroke vs DFI

The original post was comparing DFI and 4-strokes. <br /><br />In the 6 cylinder 200-225 hp range most 200-225's weigh the same in both DFI and 4-stroke designs. <br /><br />A customer considering an engine in this size would be concerned about weight between the designs if he or she is contemplating a runabout, bass boat, multi-species, flats boat, etc. A 30' plus offshore center console owner may not be as concerned about how heavy the motors are.

 

[jegervais]

Re: 4 stroke vs DFI

So why isn't it available for us to buy? What good does it do us? Hmm.

That's simple, even a cranky ol' engineer should know the answer:<br /><br />ECONOMICS 101: The larger profit margin is in the higher horsepower models.<br /><br />sea horse, you holdin' out on us?<br /><br /> http://bbcboards.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=11005

 

[tym42ply]

Re: 4 stroke vs DFI

Forktail, have you ever even ran an E-Tec? Also, IF the statements about the E-Tec are true (more power, better fuel economy, lower operating cost, etc.) Would you consider owning one?

 

[Forktail]

Re: 4 stroke vs DFI

By John from Illinois:<br /><br />ECONOMICS 101: The larger profit margin is in the higher horsepower models.

Profit margin? That's the worst excuse I've ever seen for not having smaller hp DFI's available. <br /> <br />According to the latest NMMA's outboard sales statistics (1997-2001), only about 10% of outboards sold are 200 hp and over. Three times that many are sold in the 30 hp and below class alone. Even the 150 hp and above class represents only about 20% of sales.<br /><br />Surely an outboard salesman like yourself knows enough about "ECONOMICS 101" to realize that smaller profit margins equal larger overall profits when larger quantities are sold. The higher horsepower outboards may have higher profit margins, but fewer are sold. <br /><br />But really, that's not the point. If it was, Bombardier wouldn't be selling both the little 2-strokes and 4-strokes. Honda, Yamaha, Mercury, Suzuki, Tohatsu, Nissan, etc. wouldn't be selling them either. Again, they are the most popular segment. They are in demand. And it appears there must be sufficient profit margin. <br /><br />So the point is that DFI technology is not available in the smaller outboards, whether it be because of weight, cost to manufacture, or technology problems. <br /><br />To brush off their non-existence in smaller hp models as a "profit margin" issue would be ignorant.

 

[Forktail]

Re: 4 stroke vs DFI

By tym42ply:<br /><br />Forktail, have you ever even ran an E-Tec? Also, IF the statements about the E-Tec are true (more power, better fuel economy, lower operating cost, etc.) Would you consider owning one?

I notice you don't mention reliability, durability, and longevity. <br /><br />Those are the most important things to me, and in that order.<br /><br />Power is power. My proven 4-strokes give me plenty of power. <br /><br />Fuel savings of a DFI over a 4-stroke are debatable. A simple breakdown with a DFI will wash away any fuel savings for me (if there are any). Clients don't like breakdowns.<br /><br />Lower operating costs...yet to be seen. We're already seeing examples of E-Tec owners who are using more oil than promised. The 3-year, no maintenance scheme wouldn't apply to me, as Bombardier bases that claim on limited recreational usage. That's a red flag for me. My maintenance estimates for the E-Tec are unknown, and that's enough to stay away from it.<br /><br />When the E-Tec's prove themselves more reliable, more durable, and as long-lived as the 4-strokes I currently run, then yes, I will own them. Like I said, I need the best. <br /><br />BTW, my dealer hasn't even sold one E-Tec yet, and I haven't seen any on the water either. I'm not about to give them a try 100 miles out in the Gulf of Alaska.

 

[NOSLEEP]

Re: 4 stroke vs DFI

Forktail if your dealer hasn't sold one e-tec yet<br />and you haven't seen one e-tec one the water.<br />You live in a small world. Ge wiz I'm from the<br />Prairies and have seen them from the Skeena River<br />on jet packages to high mountain lakes and<br />on the Ocean in The most remote places you could<br />dream of going. You're talking into a bag.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: 4 stroke vs DFI

NOSLEEP, we've got 2 rude dealers right here on the lake (Texoma) and several up on dry ground around here...The 4th of July weekend, officials said there were approx. 250,000 boats on the lake that weekend. I didn't see an E-Tec then, and haven't seen one yet on this lake. I work right on the lake and see hundreds of boats a day, some days. The only place I've seen one run is the 2 prototypes they were running at lake dillon in colorado...they just haven't sold many yet, and those that have been sold seem to have an oil issue that isn't up to listed specs, and I hate to say that cause I'm a great fan of J/E.<br />We'll see how they pan-out when they start showing up in the shop.

 

[NOSLEEP]

Re: 4 stroke vs DFI

If you haven't seen any then what you are hearing<br />is just hearsay. I have one and I have no oiling<br />issues. This motor starts and runs flawlessly.<br />Has plenty of power and is an extremely well<br />thought out package. I say that because of its<br />simplicity. Evinrude has the best anticorrosion<br />quality's available, that would make any other<br />brand envious.Requires little maintenance,doesn't<br />require oil changes,has no belts or valves to<br />adjust. Its just plain turn key and go. And its<br />a 2 stroke to boot. Gotta love it.

 

[Forktail]

Re: 4 stroke vs DFI

NOSLEEP....looks like you're calling me a liar. Whatever.<br /><br />First of all, the E-Tec's haven't yet been available in the higher horsepower models that are used here in the salt water on the bigger boats. You can't sell something people can't use. <br /><br />Second, the smaller hp outboards used on the rivers here are all tillers. The E-Tec has a pathetic tiller arm. You can't sell something that people don't like.<br /><br />Add this to the unknown of the E-Tec's reliability and longevity (which are biggies here) and they simply are not selling...at all.<br /><br />If you think the E-Tecs are selling like hotcakes, you're dreaming. <br /><br />Now I'm sure you think your E-Tec is wonderful, even though you probably don't have a hundred hours on it yet. And I'm sure you think it has the "best anticorrosion" available, even though I doubt it's sat in a salt-water harbor for a season, or at all. And I'm sure you think the 3-year no maintenance plan won't catch up with you at year 4, 8, or 12. That's great and I'm happy for you.<br /><br />When you get 3-4000 hours on your E-Tec, abusing it day in and day out in the salt water, without corrosion or the need for maintenance, let me know. Until then you're just talking into a bag with nothing but "hearsay".

 

[NOSLEEP]

Re: 4 stroke vs DFI

I'm not calling you a liar.<br />You are just biased and misinformed.<br />This afternoon I am leaving for 10 days to go <br />Vancouver Island to abuse my E-TEC and catch<br />me some more salmon.<br /> <br />Cheers.

 

[jegervais]

Re: 4 stroke vs DFI

Forktail, you crack me up! <br /><br />I hope you run your fleet operation better than you run your fingers on the keyboard.<br /><br />Ok gang, let's play "Command Decision":<br /><br />1.) You can build 300 small E-WIDGETS to earn $100,000. But to do this you will need to make a sizeable capital investment in tooling to complete this project. Your current sales of small widgets meets your sales forecast and steady. Or, <br /><br />2.) You can build 100 large E-WIDGETS to earn $100,000. Any capital investment in tooling is minimal. Your current sales of large widgets is above your sales forecast and the majority of your distribution network wants large E-WIDGETS.<br /><br />Options: Stick with a financially sound, well planned business decision or risk loosing the sales of large E-WIDGETS, because Nannook the non-believer wants to see a E-WIDGET?<br /><br />Which would you choose? The decision after our commercial break...

 

[Forktail]

Re: 4 stroke vs DFI

John, you might want to stick to selling outboards rather than manufacturing and marketing them. Because there's a couple problems with your "Command Decision" scenario....<br /><br />First of all, we're not talking about comparing 300 outboards sold to 100 . Using the NMMA's statistics on outboard motor sales (1997-2001) it would be more like 100 large E-WIDGETS to 900 smaller E-WIDGETS. Only about 10% of sales are 200 HP and above outboards. <br /><br />And for some reason you claim the capital investment in tooling for the large E-WIDGETS would be "minimal". Yet you claim the capital investment would be "sizeable" for the small "E-WIDGETS". You appear to have it backwards. <br /><br />My experience (as a Manufacturing Engineer) says that tooling for bigger products takes a bigger capital investment. And the return on any tooling investment increases as more and more units are produced by that tooling. There are advantages to manufacturing in quantity.<br /><br />And for some reason you claim the current sales of the small widgets only meets the forcast, while sales of large widgets exceeds them. <br /><br />Sales forcasts don't have much to do with it. You could forcast that you'd sell 5 large widgets and exceed that forcast by selling 6. And you could forcast that you'd sell 5,000 small widgets and meet that forcast by selling 5,000. <br /><br />You are ignoring the fact that (according to the NMMA) only about 10% of outboards sold are in the 200 HP and above class, and even the 150 HP and above class make up only about 20%. It is obvious that the profits are in the lower hp range.<br /><br />With that said ask yourself why, if the large E-Tec's cost less to tool for and sales figures could be exceeded and they have higher "profit margins", why Bombardier didn't release them first instead of only the 40-90 HP range?<br /><br />As far as some distributors wanting large E-Tec's...you're ignoring the big picture where only 10% of outboard buyers are actually buying them.<br /><br />If there wasn't large profits in the smaller outboards, Bombardier wouldn't currently be selling them in both 4-stroke and 2-stroke models. Again, they are the most popular segment.<br /><br />If you believe that the smaller E-Tec's aren't available because of "profit margin", then you are truly ignorant.