4 Winns + 5.0L OMC -- top speed? and bogging..

[pantaloonz]

Hi Gang,

I've search through several threads about engine bogging down, and I think I may be in the same position with a timing, or fuel delivery issue. I was not able to start my boat this spring until I bypassed the fuel filter/water separator completely and it started and ran fine.

Now I'm getting bogging right after throttling past the head speed. Most times it will bog down.. then catch and then it runs just fine getting on plane and tooling around, pulling tubes etc.

My last outing it ran great for two days straight (slight bogging as described) then finally on the third day coming back from watching fireworks on the lake I was cruising along, and out of the blue the engine just cut WAY back to just barely over idle,..I quickly throttled back and saved it from stalling. When I throttled forward again it stalled.

Started fine.. forward gear fine.. throttle down slowly .. bog .. stall. I then went to absolutely minute changes of throttle and it did get to a decent speed and we got safely to the dock. From the dock to launch it seemed to be ok again ( I did add like 2 gallons of fuel at the dock)...

Based on ALL of that... I'm wondering if maybe there is crud in the tank, or some bad gas down in there and when I was nearing empty the lousy gas n crud was starting to creep into the system... would that make sense? I plan on checking/replacing the filter/separator when the new part comes in. I believe someone suggested dumping the contents of the separator into a bowl or baggie and look for crap?

Finally my boat (1992 Four Winns Horizon 190) only goes 35-40MPH tops...Is this good, bad, indifferent? I was thinking a 5.0L 305 Ford engine would be able to move that boat closer to 50-60MPH?.. At 38MPH it's running close to 6000 RPM.. maybe I'm driving her too hard ?

Advice and thoughts welcome.

-Pantz

 

[Lou C]

You have either a fuel delivery problem or an ignition advance problem and given the age of the boat the former is more likely.
You could have clogging in the fuel pick up in the tank or the anti siphon valve on the tank might be corrided and sticking. Also the fuel vent for the tank might be clogged not allowing air in the tank.
Those things should be ruled out first then look at other causes like total timing advance.
And DO NOT run that engine at 6,000 rpm. They are not high rpm units, consider a safe max engine speed to be about 5,000 rpm. Cruising rpms should be about 3500 rpm for long engine life.

 

[pantaloonz]

Thanks Lou

I should have checked the vent last time I had that section of the floor up.. I will certainly do that.

In the spring I checked the fuel pickup line (clean and good) I checked the anti-siphon value also working well.. this is when I bypassed the fuel line straight to the fuel pump to get it started. I did not replace that fuel filter at that time as the marina did that (or say they did) with the routine winterization.?

I'm trying to find a video on timing adjustments.. I'm a hard core DIYer, I much prefer to do this stuff myself..

Thank you for the tip on the RPM's .. The tach is reading 5500 RPMs at WOT but the engine doesn't sound like it's working that hard, maybe I'm doing a lousy job at trimming it out..

Ironically the engine seems to be working harder at a nominal cruising speed (say 25pmh) with 6 people in it. It's definitely always above 4500 RPM at this point even when it's running on plane...

Should I be doing a compression test?

Thank you!

 

[HT32BSX115]

Before you do anything, you probably should get another known tach and verify the engine is actually turning that high. Many tachometers are way off at the high end.......

 

[pantaloonz]

Thank you HT32,

Im reading I should verify the tach setting as well? 6p or something similar.. where the hell did I put my book..

last time I was out I should have paid closer attention, I want to say in idle my tach bouncing around the 1200-1500 mark, and of course that doesn't make sense when it should be half that.. I'll verify the tach setting and loose/corroded shiny metal things too.

Waiting on new fuel separator, and going to pull the boards and check the vent tonight I hope.. too much to do with my hull repair going on too!

-Pantz

 

[HT32BSX115]

I want to say in idle my tach bouncing around the 1200-1500 mark, and of course that doesn't make sense when it should be half that..

Yeah. If it's really turning that fast at idle, you will have a bigger problem when it destroys the clutch dogs.

 

[Bondo]

Ford engine would be able to move that boat closer to 50-60MPH?..

Ayuh,..... In 30? Saltwater,..?? Maybe,......

Anywhere else on the planet,.... low/ mid 40s is Good,....

You need a reliable tach, 1st, 'n foremost,..... 5500 rpms is livin' Dangerous,.....

 

[pantaloonz]

Hi Bondo!

That's actually good to know.. you know it's sort of an ego thing.. my buddy just bought a 2014 Sea Doo 3 person jetski. That things smokes me in the water even when I'm the only one in the boat!! Obviously the acceleration of the jetski will be uncomparable.. but I thought I'd beat him out top speed!

Now that I understand mid 40's is a good top speed, then I'm satisfied!

I still need to fix that bog down.. but I've been spending time on the hull repair.

-Pantz

 

[pantaloonz]

Last night I got down to the tank.

I disconnected the battery and made sure to keep anything that could spark out of harms way..

I disconnected the vent line and ran air through it from a pump that we use to blow up our tubes with .. it showed no signs of obstruction. So I don't think I have a venting problem.

I then took off the fuel filter / water seperator; I emptied it into a mason jar. The fuel looked fine, no debris or settlement..The seperator was full of fuel and there was no additional fuel draining from either the line forward to the engine or back to the tank. The filter insides looked fine to me, though it has no marking or indications on it whatsoever, and it was on EXTREMELY tight..

I replaced it anyway with Sierra 18-7789 and it was a nice smooth fit, and It's on tight, but not overly so.

From visual inspection these components seem fine. Going out on the water later today, to see if there is any difference.

If I'm still getting the bog I will take off the flame arrestor and check for good fuel in the carb?

Based on input here, and research I could have:

Carb problems -- rebuild kit if it comes to that.
Timing -- Need to find someone with a timing light, I could not easily see Top Dead Center but it was getting late last night.
I'll check the tach

Side note; This fuel tank is old, showing singns of deterioration and needs a replacement. the sending unit is badly rusted and likley the reason I'm not getting good fuel readings at the guage.
-- additionally, from what I could see I thought I could see the bottom of my hull.. but there is no foam that I can see, and not alot of strcture holding up the decking.. it's all sound and not squishy..it looks pretty clean under there too.. this fall should be fun when I replace the guts.

 

[pantaloonz]

Sucessful outing today bogged down once during warm up..after it warned up it was all good. In fact the best it has run. Tach reads 1200 at idle Im pretty sure it's bad.

New fuel filter; blew out the vent, I think biggest difference was I filled up with 93 octane feul. Very happy with the performance .

Tach and speedometer are both flaky but I'll take a good running boat over flaky gauges any time!!

Thanks everyone I consider this issue closed I really appreciate all the help.

-pantz

 

[Offrddrver]

[FONT=&quot]Pantz,
I have a 1992 Four Winns 190 Horizon with FORD 5.0L (302) motor (NOT H.O. version).
My model # is 502BPRAMK. [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]I run my boat in AZ, so hot outside air.
The idle is set at 620 RPM using an external Tach/Dwell meter. Dash tach is very close to the same reading. Range for 5.0L FORD is 550 to 650 RPM.
I find my outdrive shifts best if just over 600 RPM.
My W.O.T. is just over 4400 RPM, but not quite 4500 RPM. (Trimmed UP)
Listing for Ford 5.0L W.O.T. is 4000 to 4400 RPM.
I run idle at 10 degree BTDC (and make sure your motor advances with throttle up) [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]I have two props.
My POWER PROP for pulling up heavy skiers is a 15 x 15 (PN: 174926) Stainless Steal prop. Runs 42 MPH W.O.T.
My faster prop is a 14.5 x 19 (PN: 501201). Aluminum prop. Runs at 47 MPH W.O.T. (nowhere close to as good of whole shot as my POWER PROP) Whole shot is way more important to a slalom skier.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]If your outdrive is known to be original then you should be weary of running 5000 RPM, and definitely not 6000 RPM. Something may blow at those RPM's. Maybe your tach switch is not set to 8 cylinder. Check with an external tach if possible.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]I know you said this post is closed, but I thought I would add 2 cents as I have what may be the same boat setup.

I'd be interested in comparing more about our boats as mine just developed some issues last season, and have continued this year. Troubleshooting now. I'm adding a new post tonight.
[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Best regards, [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Offrddrver (Off Road Driver) [/FONT]​

 

[pantaloonz]

Hi Off,

I'd be happy to stay in touch with you -- although you're getting the short end of the stick as I can tell just from your post your are far more experienced with engine repair than I am.

The previous owner was very up front about this boat, he knew it was old, and made no excuses about the interior or the flaky helm gauges. So I knew going in I'd have some clean up to do.

The spedmeter flat out stopped working, and I said the tach is definately off. My engine shifts smoothly. I was shifting too slowly before and now that I'm a bit more confident and shift "smartly" I'm treating the clutch properly. I feel good about the engine, the idle seems quite normal as compared to the 4 other boats I've been on this summer (just to test). I'm estimating based on the discrepency of the tach my WOT is roughly 4700-4800 RPM and my normal crusing speed is under 4K: once planed correctly she goes very easily and the engine still purrs. After a good cruising session, I remove my engine cover, it's not too hot.. there are no odors; there is no fluid in the bilge, she's not shaky...I feel fortunate the p.o stored her inside for the winters, that makes a huge diff

The p.o. also added a stereo, and a new bilge pump: I believe he left the old one in place rather than removing it, there is a spare wire back down near the engine that when I connect to power I hear a pump like sound very near the new bilge pump. He also added and since removed a fish finder and a depth gauge. Both of which have the stern components remaining, but just empty wire leads inside. He also added a new blower. The point here is that many electrical additions have happened and they all havent' been tidy.

This fall I will have my work cut out for me as far as helm controls go, but not that I'm complaining, I think I have a good main harness that just needs some tlc.. and some DARN labeling!! (I'm a network engineer by day so I know how to cable and label!)

My two main responses for you:

1.) My engine serial number plate is obliterated, my best estimate is a model 502BPRAMH (the H or K just signifies en engine version correct?) I'm guessing the H .. but it could be K.

2.) "I run idle at 10 degree BTDC (and make sure your motor advances with throttle up)" -- I do not yet know how to make this adjustment, as I've stated I'm a network guy by day, so still learning engines!

3.) I will check the tach setting, I think I can do that.

I'm happy to continue discussing our similar issues, I'll check for your other post as well!

I have this week off and the family wants to boat A LOT! .. so I'll have plenty of feedback!

-Pantz

*my alternator belt still squeaks a little, I got the wrong one last repair so only the p/s belt is new.. that's a quick fix though.

 

[JJBoatr]

Just to be clear about your max RPM's. I have the exact same model boat but with the 5.0HO, and my book says your non-HO should be turning 4,000 - 4,400RPM at WOT just like my HO. If you hit 6,000RPM either your tach is off (most likely), or someone put a prop that is pitched waaaaay to low for that drive combo and you are very lucky that you didn't float a valve or something. And BTW, I regularly get 47 MPH out of my boat on GPS with my family in the bow, a speed I find quite acceptable. Get perfect conditions and go for a solo run and it might hit that magic 50mph. But I'm happy either way.

 

[pantaloonz]

Hi JJ.

Prop specifications is something that I have not dealt with,.. but the boat does like to have it's nose in the air even when pulling a small kneeboader. This weekend my wife drove with my older son spotting and my youngest kneeboarding. The boat's nose was up what I thought too high, but when I got back in the boat (I float in the water while they kneeboard) I noticed the trim still had a 1/4 to go. So I trimmed it all down and had my wife pull me on the kneeboard. The boat had decent plane when she got me going faster, but during acceleration either starting out or coming out of turn.. I can almost see the prop.. at this point I was reading up on some balast bags! ... All that being said, with my family in the boat, wife in the bow, the boat planes out nicely and I know does a decent 35-40.. our lake is small so that's a good speed for us. With 4 adults dispersed properluy.. no issue.

According to the PO it's the original prop.. it's a little pitted and dinged on it's very edges but still looks fine.

It is possible that's the same prop for 20+ yrs?

Where can I find it's settings? etched somewhere on it?

We're going out tomorrow afternoon removing the prop seems straightforward. I'll check it out and if necessary begin a new thread in the prop section.

Thank you for chiming in with some excellent information

-Pantz

 

[southkogs]

It's possible it's the original ... I've got a couple of 40 year old props that look okay. Usually on the hub face, but sometimes on the side you, you should see the diameter x the pitch noted. In my case, 14 x 16.

 

[pantaloonz]

SouthK,

Thanks for your information, I just went out and checked things out and just as you said it's on the hub face.
14-1/2 by 19.


I also managed to grab the serial number of the outdrive! yay! The engine plate is worn away but as this is the original outdrive, I should be able to confirm that my engine is indeed a 502BPRAM.. the h or k is still up for guessing? I'm guessing H as the K was for the HO version?

Anyway the model number on the outdrive is 987124.

Thoughts?

-Pantz

 

[JJBoatr]

If it's your original OMC prop you will find the diameter and pitch specs on the aft end of the inner prop hub, usually under the spline washer. If it's a Merc prop you can find those numbers on the outer prop hub between the blades. The factory prop for my boat is 14.25 x 21 just to give an idea of what you may find. And don't be too alarmed on how much of the lower unit you can see when up on plane. It is normal to be able to see the top of the antiventilation plate (surface just above the prop where the trim tab is located). I'm sure you wife is aware now but it is crucial to have the drive fully down when getting on plane. Having the drive up as she did is not good for the u-joints on the lower unit driveshaft. My trim unit let's out a distinct high pitched squeal when it reaches full travel in up or down.

Btw....what rpm were you turning at 40mph? Are you triming up to attain that speed? Did you get the tach issue resolved?

Glad you're enjoying your Four Winns...I love mine!!

 

[Offrddrver]

Pantz,

1.) My engine serial number plate is obliterated, my best estimate is a model 502BPRAMH (the H or K just signifies en engine version correct?) I'm guessing the H .. but it could be K.
***Sounds right. From what I can see most parts are the same, as noted some of my 1992 502BPRAMK has 1993 parts/wiring harness, so maybe that is the H to K change***

2.) "I run idle at 10 degree BTDC (and make sure your motor advances with throttle up)" -- I do not yet know how to make this adjustment, as I've stated I'm a network guy by day, so still learning engines!
(Test while on muffs (safest))
2a. You will need a timing light, and hook that up per the manufacturer's instructions.
2b. Rotate the motor until you see the TDC mark/stamp on the harmonic balancer. To the left of that you should see ATC (after top center) stamp, and on the right of TDC stamp you should see dashes and numbers. Mark the 10 & dash at the ten with a white paint pen. I also painted my indicator stem white.
2c. Start the motor (with water flowing through muffs) and let it warm up a couple minutes.
2d. Point the timing light at the harmonic balancer and at the indicator needle. You will see dash marks and numbers on the harmonic balancer (they kind of look like they are floating on the metal wheel)
2e. At idle, timing light flashing, the indicator needle should have the 10- (10 D-BTDC) under it while lining up your vision with the needle.
2e.1. If you don't see that white 10 under the needle your timing may be off. (To make it right you have to rotate your distributor body/shaft assembly.)
2f. Once 10 D-BTDC is set then you can move on to checking if your advance is moving....advancing.
2g. Have a 2nd person put the motor in gear but as little amount of throttle as possible. (Basically idle motor speed, but outdrive engaged.)
2h. Tell the driver to slowly increase the throttle while you have the timing light focused at the harmonic balancer and indicator needle. You should see the numbers on the harmonic balancer start to move (advance). If the numbers are moving the more the throttle is increased, then the advance is working. If the numbers are not moving then your advance may not be working properly. (my Prestolite distributor has a mechanical advance) **I don't remember what the MAX advance is for our motors, but this check is not to find max, only to see if your advance is moving.**
2i. And when throttling down you will see the numbers go in the opposite direction until back at idle (idle again 10 d-BTDC)
(If you are running the motor on the MUFFS don't throttle up too much, you are just trying to see if your distributor is properly advancing.)



3.) I will check the tach setting, I think I can do that.
3a. Mine just has a 4cyl, 6cyl, 8cyl rotation setting dial on the back, so make sure yours is on the 8cyl position.

Always remember, it's on youtube!
AND BE SAFE AS YOU ARE NEAR THE MOTOR BELTS! [h=1][/h] I hope that helps.

Best regards,

Offrddrver
(Off Road Driver)

 

[pantaloonz]

Thanks OffD for the awesome AND specific instructions. I'm including a pic of my distributor as there are no markings that I can discern...

This cover does not seem to be the original color? I don't have time today to take off the cap ..but I bet the info you're looking for is under the cap ya?



-Pantz

 

[pantaloonz]

Oh forgot to mention that my tach is set for the right setting, but it's still bouncy when we're boating around. Heck just turning the key causes the thing to bounce around I'm looking into a a new one.

Oddly the back of the tach has like 8 things connected to it.. I've not seen something like that before.. it's got three main connections than a board right across the back with a bunch of connectors feeding into it.. not used to that