40 hp to 50 hp

GA Bow

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May 13, 2008
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Has anyone tried to change the carburetor to gain 10 more hp? I am considering it but would like any input. From all the research I can find the carburetor is the only difference.
 

jerryjerry05

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Re: 40 hp to 50 hp

It don't work like that.You have to consider bore and stroke along with jet size.You might just end up wasting gas.
Just get a bigger motor. Jerry
 

Frank Acampora

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Re: 40 hp to 50 hp

This question comes up time and time again from people who are basically trying to gain something from nothing. It is commendable to want to have your engine put out all the horsepower it is capable of delivering but like Jerry said "It don't work that way."

If you install a carb from a 50 horse engine onto a 40 horse engine you will get-----40 horsepower. MAYBE a skootch more, but not enough to mention and most certainly not enough to see a worthwhile difference in speed.

Although they MAY SEEM to have the same block (they probably do) the bore and stroke is different (less cubes on the 40) and the porting may be slightly different. The 40 may also have a smaller exhaust cavity restricting gas flow a bit more than the 50. --It was like that on the Chryslers. And if you look at the model plate you may see that they develop their rated horsepower at different RPM.
 

gn83tm

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Re: 40 hp to 50 hp

I really hate to dig up old dirt but I'm curious if anyone has a definative answer on the difference between the 40 and 50 HP motors. I've spent a little time comparing part numbers on Doug Russell Marine's site (1997 model year since that's what I have). The bore and stroke argument sounds good except that they list the same crank (same stroke) and the same piston kit (same bore). I thought about ignition mapping being different but they list the same CDI. Other parts that are the same include: reed plate/cage/reeds, exhaust port plate, head, carb adapter, and cylinder kit which would cover most everything. It says "please call" for the head gaskets but I doubt they'd be different enough to make 10 HP.

This leads back to the carb being the difference and this would make sense since a choked-off motor would make less power. Why they would do this, who knows. I didn't check all the numbers but these were the same between the two: throttle plate, bowl, main nozzle, gasket set, and carb kit. These numbers were different: main jet (.062 vs .096") and carb (TC-131A vs TC-134A). The thing that doesn't make sense is that the throttle plates are the same. To make more power you have to get more air in and you can't do that if the hole is the same size (unless you blow in it). Does anyone know what I'm missing here? Not trying to start a fight or anything but this sure has my curiosity up.
 

sweezy722

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Re: 40 hp to 50 hp

My block is stamped for 40 and 50 hp models. After seeing this I did the same thing you have and found all part numbers to be the same. Even the carb shows all the same part numbers except the jet. I could not resist the curiosity and ordered the 50hp jet when ordering a water pump. For $4.22 I had to know. It does not work. My 40hp went to about 8hp. It was really loading up. I still have the jet. I keep it as a reminder to pay attention to what is posted on this site.
 

gn83tm

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Re: 40 hp to 50 hp

No disrespect intended, but I am "paying attention to what is posted on this site" and that's what fuels the discussion. For instance, I think the bore/stroke arguement has been disproven.

Back to the carb. There's no way you can just change the main jet 30 points and have a running engine. There has to be a way to add more air along with that fuel and that is what has me stumped right now. Sure wish I had a 50 HP carb to compare to. There must be a difference in the venturi size or something but how can that be if the throttle plate is the same size?

BTW, I just sent an email to Tillotson in Ireland in regards to this question. Any bets on whether I'll get a response?:)
 

Frank Acampora

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Re: 40 hp to 50 hp

Well, I will give you an example: When I mentioned bore and stroke, I was actually referring to the old Chrysler 45 and 55 which do have a 1/16 inch (approx--don't beat me up) different bore and stroke. However, the bypass and exhaust port timing (height at which the ports are cut into the cylinder and size of the ports.) are different also, as may be the lower unit ratio. And as I said before, the 55 had a spacer in the exhaust cavity increasing its volume and lowering back pressure.

Now, Carbs are deceptively simple yet quite complex in operation. A venturi will get progressively richer as airflow through it increases. SO: the carbs are vented differently to keep the venturi delivering the proper ratio of fuel at the higher rated RPM of the higher horsepower engine. Thus to compensate, the jet MUST be significantly larger to deliver the same amount of fuel. If you simply swap jets, the larger jet replacing the smaller will simply make the engine run richer, and if significantly larger, the engine may not run at all--try running in choke all the time. Coupled with this, the low speed circuit which delivers fuel when not enough air is flowing through the venturi to draw fuel is constantly at manifold vacuum, so is constantly delivering some fuel at all speeds. Thus the venting must also compensate for this. Tillotsen has special meters and equipment to check flow rates of carbs when they are designing them for a specific engine. There is a reason why the engine maker does not make their own carbs--aside from Merc.

Now: If Force holds true to Chrysler practice, as an example, the 120 crank and the 140 crank have the exact same numbers yet are .075 stroke different. I don't know how the factory kept them separate. The 140 block has the exact same numbers as the 115 block yet the ports are cut differently. The 140 block was distinguished by a red or green paint splotch on the bottom of the #4 cylinder casting. So, you may possibly have two blocks that are different yet still have the same numbers.

ADDED TO THAT, Horsepower ratings are not exact: there may be a 5-10 % difference from claimed or rated. SO: A 40 series from the factory might well be delivering 44 while the 50 series might only deliver 45-47 HP. and a carb change could account for 2 HP.

And, since most outboard engines are carbureted at or close to the limit, changing to a significantly larger venturi will overcarburate and the engine will not have enough manifold vacuum or venturi depression to draw fuel. Don't think so? You simply can not put two 850 cfm double pumper Holleys on a 305--it will go flat the minute you open the throttle. Look at the carbs on older auto engines of 5 liters displacement (Chevy 305, Chrysler 318, Ford 302) and compare them to the venturis on your 2/3 liter 40 horse outboard. Even considering that the 2 cycle has twice the intake pulses, venturi area is significantly larger on the outboard.

Nonetheless, it still remains that if you do nothing else but change the carb, you will still only get your 40 HP. That's just the way it is.
 

gn83tm

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Re: 40 hp to 50 hp

Frank, thanks for taking the time to respond with a well thought-out post. It's a good discussion and I'll try to respond to your points in order.

I don't know much about the older Chryslers but I'll believe you on the bore and stroke differences. That would definately change the HP rating as would the different porting. In my simple mind the exhaust cavity spacer would act as a larger expansion chamber. Never really thought about it in an outboard sense before but I also play with 2 stroke street bikes, karts, and dirt bikes and the expansion chamber (pipe) configuration on them is a critical part of the tuning. Kind of hard to change on an outboard though! I'll have to do some research on how they do it with the outboard racing engines. The lower unit ratio would not affect the powerhead HP but would affect the overall performance for sure.

I agree that carbs in general are simple yet complex but I don't think many would say that the Tillotson is a "complex" carb. It's a pretty basic design and works ok for basic applications, i.e. old tractors, lawn mowers, inexpensive outboards, etc. Don't see it used too much in F1, NASCAR, or NHRA so I wouldn't be giving it too much credit.

I don't quite follow you on the carb "venting". When I think of venting on a carb I am refering to bowl venting and that will have nothing to do with air/fuel flow through the carb as long as it is not blocked, keeping atmospheric pressure from pushing the fuel through the carb circuits.

A specific venturi at a specific rate of air flow (ultimately determined by displacement of the engine) will deliver a specific amount of air/fuel to the engine. The jets will limit the fuel but the air is a function of the venturi size/shape (fixed in this instance). If the A/F ratio is correct (proper jetting) you're only going to get so much HP. How you can get more w/o changing the venturi (I'm assuming it's not changed because the throttle blade is the same size between the 2) and getting more air into the motor is the mystery to me and I'm probably missing something.

Having different parts with the same part numbers sounds like a nightmare to me but I'll take your word for it. I do find it a little hard to believe that Merc/Force was doing that only 10 years ago.

I understand the range difference on the HP ratings. Do you think maybe they just dynoed each engine to see what it had and then just put on the corresponding carb and a 40 or 50 decal depending on how it did?

I very much understand matching the carb size to the engine and agree that slapping a 850 double pumper on a stock 305 is not the way to go. However, the larger carb (properly tuned) will not have an effect on the max HP of the engine. Putting on a 350 cfm will limit the max HP though. For example, up until a couple of years ago (took a long time to wise up;)) I raced dirt late models. We ran in a "limited" class that required a Holley 4412 (500 cfm) 2 barrel. The motor would make just over 400 HP with the carb. It was quite restricted and simply changing to a 750 cfm would gain close to 150 HP with no other changes. All this to say that I could see them putting a smaller carb on the 40 to limit the HP of it and subsequently putting a larger carb on the 50 (with no other changes) allowing it to produce what it was capable of. I'm not so sure I agree with your last statement. At this point, I'd bet the carb on the 40 is smaller and therefore limiting the HP. Again, how this can be with the same throttle plate, I don't know.

Thanks so much for the discussion. Sure with I had the 2 motors (or at least the carbs) side-by-side so I could compare them! Anyone have a 50 HP carb they want to loan me?:D

Terry
 

Frank Acampora

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Re: 40 hp to 50 hp

Actually, I mis-spoke when I wrote venting because the venturi dip tube is air bled from various points in various carbs to balance fuel flow, and on some carbs, you can see a tiny air bleed hole in the side of the manifold side of the venturi. Very small and you need to know it's there to see it. Some have an air bleed in the front portion of the venturi. Some of the newer carbs have an air bleed JET in the side of the casting. Not having the carbs in front of me, I can only state that in the mid-sized engines, The venturi is either 1 3/16, or 1 5/16. The fuel Jet only functions to limit fuel flow at or near full throttle, since as I said before, one of the properties of a venturi is to get richer as airflow increases through it. Thus, at full throttle, without a jet, the engine would run too rich when set up to deliver the correct amount of fuel at mid throttle.

For example, the 75 Chrysler uses three 1 3/16 carbs while the 85 and 90 with the exact same bore and stroke uses three 1 5/16 carbs. HOWEVER, The 75 has a lower compression ratio, and the ports are not only cut lower in the cylinder but smaller in size. Changing to three 1 5/16 carbs will not yeild much more horsepower at all--maybe a couple, but that's it. Remember, as I said, these engines are carbureted to almost their limit. (and it never fails to amaze me that they will accelerate without an acceleration pump like auto carbs.) Remember also, with these carbs, you are not talking a great difference in CFM. It's not like you are going from 350 to 650. If you look closely at the different carbs, in this case, you will see that the butterflies are slightly larger for the 85 carbs. They actually bore out the back of the carb right up to the venturi. However, with the smaller exhaust ports, I believe that airflow through the 75 is limited by the engine, and not the carbs. Thus the larger carbs will give a little more power due to less air restriction, but will not deliver significantly greater volumes of air because the engine is not capable of pumping it. So, you may see better low end acceleration but top speed will not change much at all. BTW: While the 90 is ported the same as the 85, in addition to higher compression, the 90 also has a lower gear ratio to let the engine rev a little higher and get the extra 5 HP. So: putting 90 carbs on an 85 gives you 85 Horsepower. If I remember correctly, the 75 produces its rated power at 4750, the 85 at 5000or 5250, and the 90 at 5500.

Now, I have ported an 85 block, installed a 90 HP head, 90 lower unit, and three carbs off the 100 HP engines. Originally the 85 pushed the boat at 34-36 MPH. after the work, it pushed the boat at 42-45. There, I am possibly reaching the potential of the larger carbs. And, even on this engine, when I go from 3/4 to full throttle, the engine makes a lot more noise, uses a lot more fuel, and only goes about 1-2 MPH faster. So, that tells me that the engine work was more important than the carb change in making horsepower.

And don't ask how they vary the compression ratio because I don't know: the heads all look alike. However if you see the charts. Generally (with a few exceptions) as the engines increase in horsepower, the compression ratio goes up.

I think the thing you are missing is that you are talking about basically a stock engine that was designed to deliver a rated horsepower, and thinking about engines set up for racing. With just a carb change, you will get an increase in Horsepower, but it will in most cases be so small that you will not notice it during operation. Remember: drag goes up by the cube while horsepower increases linearly; it takes roughly 4 times the horsepower to double speed. Yeah, play with your 40 a bit and you will get 50 out of it, but it's going to take more than a carb. Let's not forget reeds, but I don't want to get into them because they are most likely the same on the 40 and 50.

Also think about this: On the old Chrysler 318 engine with a 2 barrel, it delivered (I think) 180 horsepower. Put on a holley 4 barrel and you only got about 10 or so ponies more. And this was on a 5 liter engine. Might make 1/10 second less at the track--16.9 versus 17 --Not significant at that level.
If you really wanted to get the potential of the 4 barrel, you needed to install 340 heads with the bigger valves (ports?)
 

gn83tm

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Re: 40 hp to 50 hp

That's good discussion Frank, and a lot to ponder. I agree with most of what you say but the confusing thing to me is still the fact that everything about the 2 engines is the same except the carb (according to part number references and service manual specs). I really doubt that there are any differences in the way the engines are cast or machined, while retaining the same part numbers, since that would be a nightmare on the service side of things.

One other interesting thing I discovered last night is that the Force 40/50 is 821 CCD according to the service manual. I need to look again but I'm pretty sure the Merc 40 I just got rid of (1979 model) was only 546 CCD. That seems like quite a difference.
 

Ro-Tator

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Jul 16, 2007
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Re: 40 hp to 50 hp

An interesting discussion. I know of one type of honda that was nearly identical to the other. the 9.9 and 15 horsepower motors of a certain year have all the same parts except for cams and a few other minor things. the 9.9 turns slower due to the fact that the throttle plate is limited from opening all the way. that, combined with a different valvetrain, it has only 2/3 of the power of its cousin.

A friend of mine who had a 9.9 (he's a chief engineer) decided to adjust his throttle so that it would open all the way. He claims he has a 15 horsepower motor now. Imo, he gets a little more power but he could be damaging things from doing this. My point, i guess, is to say that things can seem very similar or identical but they may be very different somehow. Then again, I agree that these two force motors 40 vs. 50 sound like the only difference may be a jet or an adjustment.

It surprises me that most all of the part numbers are the same. it sounds like you know that you can't just get a bigger jet because you need more air. Are you sure your throttle is opening all the way? I know that honda did that to de-tune some motors to get slightly less power. if I were you, i'd check the exhaust plate to see if the fifty has another spacer to increase the exhaust chamber volume.

You might be onto something. If the ignition is the same and the blocks have the same part numbers, there isn't much left aside from lower unit and carb. However, I didn't see you say anything about the head. Are the part numbers identical for the heads too? Maybe one of 'em has a thinner head gasket.,,,

There must be some difference somewhere.

Good luck. I'd love to hear what you find out as you continue your investigation.

~Tator
 

gn83tm

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Re: 40 hp to 50 hp

Thanks for jumping in, Tator. The cam change on the Honda combined with limiting the throttle opening would definately change the power rating. They probably did that to have a 9.9 motor when some places started limiting the HP to less than 10. It also eliminates having to design, tool up, and make and stock parts for another engine.

Part numbers for the Force 40/50 for head, pistons, exhaust plate, and reed plate are all the same. For head gaskets it lists "CALL" so maybe there's a slight difference there. I doubt it could be a 10 HP diff since that would require a compression ratio increase so large you could no longer run pump gas.

On the Force, the carb carries a different part number between the 40 and 50 so it's more than just the jet. Funny thing is that the throttle blade is listed as being the same. One (I at least) would think that the 50 would have a slightly bigger bore carb (flows more air) which would have a bigger throttle blade. Jet size really has nothing to do with it since it can only be changed to give the correct air/fuel ratio for the particular application. Any bigger or smaller than that and performance will go down and it might hurt the engine.

This brings up something else I've thought about. I haven't heard of anyone messing with jetting much on outboards. On our dirt bikes that's a critical thing we do to get peak HP, a nice idle, good throttle response, and a clean running engine. There has to be a lot of benefit to doing this on an outboard also although with the ancient Tillotson carb there may not be a lot you can do. Maybe it's time for a swap to a couple of Mikunis or Keihins:D Nah, probably not since I have pleanty to do and for boat time I think I'd rather be fishing.
 

gn83tm

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Re: 40 hp to 50 hp

Well, I actually got a response from Tillotson on the carb difference issue. Not really worth the time they took but the "shipping clerk" gets a point for responding.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.
1. Force will advise if 40 can be run as a 50 H.P. engine.
2. I believe that the 40 HP is a detuned 50 HP engine
3. Engineering types should always check out carburetors carefully ? these carburetor bodies are not identical! Flow thru venture?

Best regards

Kathy McDonnell
Shipping Clerk
Tillotson Limited
Clash Industrial Estate
Tralee
Co. Kerry
Main Switch No. Tel: 00353 667162500
Direct Telephone No. 00353 667162506
Fax No. 00353 667124503


The question remains unanswered IMO.
 

Frank Acampora

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Re: 40 hp to 50 hp

Actually, on my Chrysler 140 which I ported all the way, increased compression ratio, relieved some backpressure, and went to a different lower unit gear ratio, I tried different jet sizes.

Original jet size was .096. Since with high performance reeds, Boyeson recommends going one jet size richer, and since I had much better airflow through the engine, with the modifications I was worried about running too lean and melting a piston or two. So: I drilled out the jets to .098 to start, and found no increase in either power or speed at full throttle. Figuring original jet area and drilled jet area, that .002 extra actually gave 10% more flow. I went further to .100 and found that at full throttle, speed and power were actually less.

Therefore, not wanting to mess with success, I went back to the .096 jets. Given that these engines are notorious for melting pistons with a lean run, I will probably never experiment with smaller jet sizes than Tillotson original--except to compensate for altitude.

I have had a few different Tillotson carbs on this engine and they made no difference in power. They all run the same. However, I am reasonably sure that a true high performance carb should make a few more ponies.

Now, you might reasonably ask: But Frank! A few posts ago, you said that a carb change would give no increase in horsepower! Aren't you contradicting yourself? True, I did say that, BUT we were considering a stock 40 hp carb versus a stock 50 hp carb on an unmodified engine. This 140 engine is highly modified. Apples and oranges--can't compare.
 

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gn83tm

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Re: 40 hp to 50 hp

Thanks for the reply Frank, really appreciate your input on this forum.

I am kind of curious as to why jetting isn't a bigger issue on outboard 2 smokes. In the dirt bike world, jetting is a very much used tuning tool and all of the serious guys are constantly messing with it. Maybe it's because the bike engines are opperating at a much higher HP to displacement ratio. With bikes we do what is refered to a "full throttle plug chop" and I would think that would be the way to dial in an outboard - especially one that's been modified like yours. Trail and error isn't really a preferred method. FWIW here's a link to a typical dirt bike jetting guide:http://http://justkdx.dirtrider.net/carbtuning.html
 
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