50 HP Force 1988 - no spark

[Billmaroney]

Model #507F8C - 50 hp 1988 Force. Bought boat (13 ft Boston Whaler)from old man not using anymore. Someone I know and trust. He owned boat for 5 years. The only thing he ever did to the motor was have the carb rebuilt one time, water pump changed a few times and replace the battery once. Anyway, boat ran great for me. I used 7 or 8 times about two hours each time. Boat would start on first or second turn of key each time. While the motor ran very smooth, it did not push the Whaler as fast as I thought it would. Top speed was about 28 mph (checked using GPS). I thought it would be more like 35 mph. Some Whaler owners tell me that their 40 hp mercury engines hit 40 mph. My prop is banged up a little and that may make a difference of 3 to 6 miles per hour I am told. (Compression is 125 - 130). Anyway, enough of the side track. My real problem is I now have no spark from either coil. I ran the bought for about 10 minutes the other day at a crusing speed of 18 - 21 mph. Slowed down to near neutral to put jacket on 3 yr old son. While changing his jacket my hand knocked throttle handle into nuetral and the engine died out. Could not get it restarted. Limped home with trolling motor. Used spark plug tester last night with fully charged battery. Flywheel seems to be turning fine, but no sparks from either cylinder. At this piont I have not tested anything else. All the wires seem to be connected. From my reading, I am thinking my problem is either the stator or CD unit. What do you guys think. I do not have a puller to take the flywheel off or a meter to test the stator. Can the stator be tested without taking off the flywheel and without a meter. Any other suggestion. I will buy a meter and flywheel puller if they do not cost too much. Where is a good place to buy parts for this motor?<br /> <br /><br />Any assistance is appreciated.

 

[12Footer]

Re: 50 HP Force 1988 - no spark

Welcome to iboats, bill.<br />The fact that it died when you bumped the throttle would steer me to look intensely at the wiring to it,and in particular, the lanyard switch. And then the switch itself should be checked.<br />Let us know what u find( or not find).<br />These engines use a closed circuit to kill the ignition.<br />As far as parts, where abouts in Florida are you? There are some good shops locally.<br />As for online parts, Outboardparts.com allways tries to get what I need.Also, see the links at the top of this page. They don't carry much in the line of Force parts, but the manuals are there LOL.<br />

 

[Billmaroney]

Re: 50 HP Force 1988 - no spark

12footer thanks for the reply,<br /><br />I live in Orlando and spend about a week-end each month in Naples visting the in laws.<br /><br />I will check the switch and wiring like you suggest, but because the starter is cranking with no spark from both coils I do not think it is the control box (switch). I probable won't get around to tinkering with it more until this week-end and I may take a break from boats this week end all together. I spent a good part of the week end before this past one refinishing the interior wood for the Whaler and the wife is starting to get a little antsey, if you know what I mean.

 

[12Footer]

Re: 50 HP Force 1988 - no spark

LOL. With a yard full of boats in various stages of repair, I can and do relate to the antsey wifey,Bill.<br />I deal with a guy here in Lee county. His shop is called "Outboards Only", and is on Pondella Road in North Fort Myers. He doesn'e stock everything, but can get anything.<br />But there are some great shops up that way too.Try Laings Outboard<br />Here are some links to shops up by you;<br /> http://www.seilermarine.com/ <br /> http://www.laingsoutboards.com/ <br /><br />To check the kill switch theory, it's not necessary to check the entire ignition switch .You just need to find out if the black/yellow ,or solid white wire is grounding out properly when the switch is tuurned off,and in no other postion.These are labeled "M" at the ignition switch...But better yet (and quicker),pull this wire at the terminal strip on the port side of the engine itself (the main terminal block).It should be clearly marked "KILL" or "OFF", and be black with a yellow stripe, or solid white . If the problem IS in the ignition or emergency kill switches, or the wiring going to them,fire will be restored....Trouble is, you won't be able to shut the engine down with the switches,so You'll have to choke it to death.<br />Then,trace down the short in the wire harness or switches.<br />If you still dont have fire, it could be hard to find,and expensive when you do.<br />But it's just too much of a coincidence,that it failed after you bumped the control.<br />Iether way, get back to me or the forum,and the gang here will see if we can help you further.

 

[ajohnston]

Re: 50 HP Force 1988 - no spark

a TECH CAN CHECK IT OUT THE STATOR WITHOUT PULLING ANYTHING, AND THE OLD STATORS HAVE A TEND TO GO OUT, HAD TO REPLACE MINE WITH ONE OF HIGHER OUTPUT, NORMALLY THEY WILL FAIL ON THE LOW SPEED OR HIGH SPEED BUT NOT BOTH AT THE SAME TIME TAKE IT TO TECH FOR 15 DOLLARS AND LET HIM CHECK IT.

 

[Billmaroney]

Re: 50 HP Force 1988 - no spark

Last night and it was cold here for Florida, I opened the control box to test the ignition switch. My light tester indicated there was no continuity between the two M terminals (one wire connected to an M terminal was blue and the wire connected to the other M terminal was white)when the key was in the on position. It looks like this is my problem. Because it was dark and cold I did not test it any further. Today I will pick up a new ignition switch and let you know how I make out.<br /><br />12footer thanks for your help. Hopefully, this is it. I can say that this has been and interesting learning experience.

 

[12Footer]

Re: 50 HP Force 1988 - no spark

WAIT! No continuity in the "ON" possition,Continuity in "OFF", switch is good.<br />The best way to troubleshoot is by disconnecting the entire kill circuit first (as outlined above at the engine).<br />If you still can't get it to start,you may have stator failure, or a fuel problem.<br />To rule-out fuel, spray some mix directly into the carb and see if engine runs briefly or even coughs . If it does, we are totally barking-up the wrong tree.

 

[Billmaroney]

Re: 50 HP Force 1988 - no spark

Okey. Testing the ignition switch, there is no continuity between the two m terminals when the switch in the ON position. According to the Selic Publication manual this means a bad switch. The manual is quoted as follows:<br /><br />"With the ignition switch rotated to the ON position, make contact with one meter or test light lead to one of the M terminals with a White lead connected. Make contact with the other meter or test light lead to the I or M terminal with the Blue lead connected. If the meter registers 12 volts or the light comes on, the ignition circuit through the ignition switch is verified as good. If the meter fails to register 12 volts or the light fails to register 12 volts or the light fails to come on the ignition circuit inside the switch is faulty and the switch must be replaced."<br /><br />What am I missing here. I did some reading after your suggesting to check the switch and the above is copied directly from the manual. Anyway already tried new switch with the same results. (by they why, I get the same results when testing the two M terminals wtih the ignition switch in the OFF postion - no continuity. I do know the testing light works). Looking more and more like the stator is a possibility. <br /><br />I looked on the terminal block like you suggested for a black wire with a yellow stripe or white wire with something clearly marked KILL or OFF, but could not find anything. Where else should I look on the motor.? <br /><br />My dad has Ohm meter. How can I test the stator without removing the flywheel? I plan on doing some more reading tonight.<br /><br />As for gas. I am sure its not the gas. I sprayed starter fluid into choke when trying to start it. No sputter what so ever.<br /><br />12footer thanks for all your help.

 

[12Footer]

Re: 50 HP Force 1988 - no spark

Bill, you stated;<br />"I looked on the terminal block like you suggested for a black wire with a yellow stripe or white wire with something clearly marked KILL or OFF, but could not find anything. Where else should I look on the motor.? "<br /><br />On the left side of the engine,there is a plastic block with 2 rows of 8 screw-type connectors.<br />This terminal strip is where all the wires that go to the helm,are attached to the engine wiring.<br /> Count down the row from the top.The 3rd wire down from the top will be the one you want to disconnect.<br />It is supposed to be black with a yellow stripe on it...But I have seen solid white used on the harness side of this terminal(one I own,as a MOF). At any rate, it will be the 3rd screw down from the top. Disconnect iether one (3rd down from the top)and check for restored spark.<br />If you now have Spark, bad switch or short in the harness going to the helm.<br />If you still have no spark,after disconnecting the wire on iether side of this terminal block, it is NOT a switch or wire problem, and it will be time to check the stator.

 

[12Footer]

Re: 50 HP Force 1988 - no spark

Oops.. Forgot to answer the question about the stator...<br />The resistance should be .8ohm to 1.1ohm.<br />But this will just let you know if the stator has an open winding. Wereas this would definitely indicate a bad stator, you really nead a peak-reading volt meter (DVA) to check one out. It should read 210 to 300 DVA.<br />A caution about testing for spark....<br />This has a "Prestolite capacitive Discharge unit". This CD unit is very suceptable to damage from a floating discharge condition, such as allowing a plug wire to be disconnected. The discharge from these units are so instense, that the arcs they make resemble lightning,and can jump 1/2" in free air! Given this, you must supply the plug wires a good path to ground (thru the plug gap of course), or the CD unit will make it's own,anywhere it wants to. When it does this once,it will conitnue to arc there,until it destroys itself. This can take 2 cranks, or it can take all day.But sooner or later, it WILL self-destruct. The way to prevent this is to leave the plug attached to the plug wire durring testing. But use a battery clip attached to the threads of the plug,and the other end grounded to the engine frame(to make it think it's threaded into the head). This will protect the expensive blue boxes.<br /><br />I hope these test good!THe CD module itself cant be checked with a peak reading meter..too hot and too touchy.<br />The trigger should have one half DVA (.5DVA).

 

[Billmaroney]

Re: 50 HP Force 1988 - no spark

12footer,<br /><br />Third switch down on the main terminal block had a white wire lead. The description for the lead was magneto. I disconnected the white wire lead and tested for spark. Still no spark. Thanks for the warning about spark testing. The spark tester I used clips into the coil spark plug lead and has a built in clip to attach to the engine block for grounding, which I made certain to do. The spark plug disconnected for testing remains in the engine block with no wire attached. I picked up another spark tester at tool tent sale for $4.00, that has a built in plastic casing where the spark/light will appear indicating coil spark. There is no ground wire to the engine block for this one, but instead of grounding to the engine block it lets you connect it to the spark plug that is still inserted in the engine block. I guess this is as good as grounding it to the engine block, except that if you have a spark the spark plug could still fire and start the engine. I have not used this spark tester yet.<br /><br />On to the stator test. I tested the blue and yellow leads from the stator for a voltage reading with the meter set at Vx10 on the AC volt scale (black meter lead connected to yellow lead wire from the stator, red meter lead attached to the blue lead wire from the stator). Cranked the motor for few seconds and the needle for the meter did not move indicating voltage test failed. Tried a second time with the same results. Following the manual, I proceeded with continuity tests (no engine cranking). Attached one of the meter leads to one of the stator leads (yellow) and set the OHM reading to the highest level for Ohms - x10 (also tested using the x1K setting) on the cheap meter that I have (there are only two settings for OHMS x10 and x1K). The needle never moved indicating contunuity test failed. The manual only said attach one of the meter leads to one of the stater leads. I do not understand why it said this, but tested it as the manaul instructed. Is this correct? Or, should both meter leads be attached to one of the stator leads to measure for continuity? Or, should a meter lead be attached separately to each coil wire (blue and yellow)? I then performed ground test of coil by connecting one meter lead to one of the leads from the stator (yellow) and attaching the other meter lead to the power head. The meter moved slightly indicating continuity and that the coils were grounded. These tests all point to the stator. Have I performed these tests correctly? I have not tested anything else.<br /><br />From here I was planning to pull flywheel and remove stator and bring to a technician to test further to make sure it is bad before ordering one, unless you convince me otherwise. Where is the cheapest place to buy one? One web site said they have a used one they would sell me for $100. I thought that was a little too much for a used one. Some one told me I should be able to get a new one for aprox. $150 - $170 at boatfix.com or fixboat.com. Do you think it would be better to leave the stator installed and bring it to a technician for testing?<br /><br />By the way, I do have a puller for the flywheel. Picked one up for $10.00 at the same tent sale that I got the spark plug tester.<br /><br />Again, this has been a learning experience and I would like to learn more. The manual reading at times can be confusing.<br /><br />Thanks in advance for your assistance.

 

[ajohnston]

Re: 50 HP Force 1988 - no spark

If you can get a used stator for 100 go for it, i could not find a new one for less than 450 but that included a new v reg and a higher output stator. I was told that mine did not perform well so they modified it and replaced it with a better one. let us know

 

[12Footer]

Re: 50 HP Force 1988 - no spark

It does sound like the stator croaked. And they are very expensive.I would try to find a used one on Ebay or thru a local boat salvage yard. This motor in good running order is only worth $600.<br />But whatever you end-up doing with the motor KEEP the Whaler. They're top of the line.

 

[Billmaroney]

Re: 50 HP Force 1988 - no spark

I am definitely keeping the whaler. I always wanted one. And after refinishing the mahogany I have become attached to the boat. My back up plan is to move 55 hp 1988 Nissan engine with power trim off of a bass boat the week before I knew the guy was selling the Whaler. Unlike the Force, this motor was never used in salt water. For what I paid for the Whaler, I would have bought it with no motor. The maximum hp suggested for the boat is 50 hp. I do not think there would be any harm in the additional 5 hp. What do you think? From what I understand, there is no law broken for exceeding the boat maximum coast gaurd recommendation for hp. However, insurance providers may not like it. <br /><br />I have a used stator lined up for $100.00 that I will pick up this week end. With the compression for each cylinder hitting 128-131, it is worth a shot. The guy that I am getting the stator from seemed very knowledgeable about Force engines. He did suggest that if could get my hands on one of the blue power packs (single CD unit, with two stand alone ignition coils) and the stator that works with it for a reasonable price that I should consider it because the engine is running strong. The C model that I have has two CD units and each is built combined with an ignition coil (no stand alone ignition coils, each unit new costs $160.00, compared to $40.00 for each coil used with the blue power pack). One thing he was not sure about was whether the trigger coil used with the stator for the C model (2 black CD unit/coils)could be used with the stator designed for the blue CD unit. Maybe you know. I am just curious. I don't plan on changing the whole system, but it is worth a shot to spend $100 on the used stator. If it turns on not to fix my problem, the guy said I could return the stator and get my money back.<br /><br />Anyway, thanks 12Footer and everyone else for your help. I will let you know how I make out in the next week or so.