'56 Fastwin 15 vs. Canadian bedrock (bedrock wins)

J_48_Johnson

Cadet
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
10
Howdy all, I need some help.

My '56 Fastwin 15 found a piece of bedrock with the prop while fishing in Canada. I was at WOT and as the pin sheared the motor free revved until I got off of the throttle, (about a half second), and then the rpm's dropped till the motor shut off. I couldn't restart it. Fearing the worst, I didn't try to restart it after this, I just brought it home at the end of the trip and started pulling the lower unit off. I pulled the prop off and the pin fell out in three pieces. When I pulled the lower unit off and took it apart, everything looked great. Even though this is a 1956, fifty seven years old, the motor has to have very low hours on it. The cheeks of the gears have a wear pattern in them that looks like silver smudges on the black tooth of the gear. Just off of center there is a silver smudge that looks like the black has been polished off of the gear tooth cheek. I went ahead and ordered new parts, o-ring, impeller, and pins for the lower unit and moved to the power head.

I borrowed a flywheel puller from a buddy, the same one I borrowed a year ago after our trip to Canada when I had ignition problems, (look for a post by me from about a year ago on these same forums, thanks to all for helping with that problem), and pulled the starter rope assembly, flywheel, and stator plate. I thought that since it didn't start, I must have sheared the pin that holds the cam wheel to the crankshaft causing an out of timing problem. No such luck. Everything I could see was in perfect condition. Let me back up a minute here... As I took the engine cover off, I noticed that the glass bowl that holds the fuel filter was empty telling me that the float bowl was empty. I wondered to myself... "Could I have ran all of the fuel out of the engine and that what was causing it to not start"? Okay, back to the stuff inside. I had to know what the problem was, so to do so, I had to pull it down and take a look. Nothing looked bad so I buttoned it up and waited for my lower end parts to come in.

Once I got the parts, I put the lower unit back together and put it back on the engine. Or TRIED to put it back on the engine. This whole process is a p.i.t.a. by yourself. Hold the lower unit with one hand while guiding the rubber grommet onto the water pipe, while guiding the shift lever linkage into the shift lever coupler while guiding the toothed drive shaft into the toothed crankshaft, while turning the prop shaft to get it lined up. ARGH! Six hands, two buddies, and a case of beer would have come in handy about now. Anyway, on one of the many attempts of doing this juggling act, I grabbed a flashlight and looked up the middle third of the motor. The part between the power head and the lower unit. (What is this whole section of an outboard called?) I looked up inside and saw something hanging down that didn't belong. It was sooty and lodged in what I would guess is the exhaust portion of the middle third of this section of the motor. After much work, I dislodged two pieces of pipe, about two and a half inches long for the one, and about three inches long for the other out of this section of casting of the motor section. Could this be an internal exhaust pipe to get the gasses below the water line for sound reduction and cooling? I have no idea what they are for, but I think I found an answer to a problem that I MAY have had all along with this motor but never knew I had. *(More on this later). Before I tested it, I pulled the plugs and turned the flywheel to see if I could notice anything wrong. All I heard was what I had heard last year when I did the same thing as I worked on the ignition portion of the motor. I could hear the pistons going up & down in the bores with no dragging or feeling any unwanted friction. I think the pistons are okay, the skirts and rings sounded okay if you can hear them being okay. I guess what I'm saying is that I didn't hear any unwanted grinding or dragging where anything was broken or scored. Anyway, I got the lower unit bolted back in place, filled and ready to test the engine.

I got it on the stand, and got a tub of water filled around it, hooked the fuel line to it, primed the can, (old pressure style can), and pulled. I pulled, and pulled, and pulled, (add about 100 more of these), and finally I got a small backfire. I kind of thought this would be the case since I did find the glass bowl empty meaning the float bowl would also be empty causing a hard to start situation. Once I got it to backfire and it had ideas of coming to life, that's all I got, just backfires and a small "I want to start" kick once in a while. Now I couldn't tell where the backfires were coming from since it was sitting in a trashcan full of water the backfire was coming from the engine, but that's all I could tell. I think it was from the exhaust, but I'm not sure. The reason I say this is because the carb. has a muffler of sorts on it making it run quieter as it pulls air in, and it was under the hood/engine cover. The pop I heard sounded louder that would be possible from under the cover and through the air intake muffler. Anyway, all I could get was a backfire with a no start condition.

I've never worked on any type of reed valve so I have no clue as to what to look for when they go bad. Could the WOT free rev situation I had cause the reed valves to fail? If so, how can I tell or what do I look for to find out if that's the problem? Now I may be full of it, but here goes... From what I know of how reed valves work, (you couldn't fill up a thimble with my reed valve knowledge), the exhaust side opens to let the spent gasses out of the combustion chamber and close to not let anything back in as the intake reed valves open to pull in a fresh air/fuel charge. If this is correct, I don't see where the backfire would come from.

*(This is the more on this later section)
One of the boats that went on the trip this year had a 9.9 Merc. With everything being equal, 14' deep-vee's, I would say our total weight compared to their total weight was about 100 pounds more. I could just outrun him with my 15. Should this be the case or should I have been able to flat out leave him? What I'm thinking is this... The two pieces of tube I found in what I would say would be the exhaust portion of the middle third of my motor may have been blocking exhaust gasses from escaping thus causing a less than full air/fuel mixture to enter the combustion chamber causing a loss of power I never knew I had. If these pieces of tube were blocking the exhaust from exiting the motor, I would have a loss of power for as long as I've owned the motor, or about ten years. With this being said, my motor for the lack of a better term has always sounded "mechanical". What I mean by this is that when running at an idle or WOT, you can hear the motor working. You can hear the mechaical-ness, (a word I just made up for the sound of my motor), of the motor as it runs. It isn't a good or bad thing, just the way it has always sounded. I'm wondering now if part of that wasn't these two pieces of tube vibrating and clunking around the whole time I've owned the motor.

With all of this laid out, I need some help.

What's with the backfire and no start condition?
What are the pieces of pipe I found lodged in the motor?
What happens when reed valves go bad or do they cause backfire such as what I've described when they do go bad?
 

HighTrim

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
10,486
Re: '56 Fastwin 15 vs. Canadian bedrock (bedrock wins)

Our Canadian waters are treacherous arent they, lol!

Anyways, let me see if I can even remember all your questions. I forget quickly.

Start with a compression test. Always step number 1 in a no start scenario. Also, if it doesnt start it 10 pulls it likely isnt going to start, so stop pulling :)

Now if compression is good, test the spark. It should jump a 1/4" gap on an inline tester with a bright blue ZAP on both cylinders.

If you have good compression, and spark, spray some premixed fuel directly into the cylinder and try again. If it fires for a couple seconds, there is a fuel delivery issue that needs dealing with.

Reed valves are rarely the problem. I have hundreds of 50s OMCS and dont think I have ever had a set go bad. Not to say it doesnt happen, but not one of the first things to look at is all.

Can you post a pic of the pieces you found?
 

nwcove

Admiral
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
6,293
Re: '56 Fastwin 15 vs. Canadian bedrock (bedrock wins)

sometimes a good whack on the lu can sheer a flywheel key.
 

HighTrim

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
10,486
Re: '56 Fastwin 15 vs. Canadian bedrock (bedrock wins)

By the way, where did you boat>? Sounds like you were in my neck of the woods.

To reinstall gearcase, put shifter into forward gear and dont worry about it just yet. That will move the coupler up and out of the way.

Now grease the water line, and grommet to help them slide together.

Put the gearcase in reverse, and start sliding it up. First watch to ensure the water line goes into the grommet. Now it will stop with about an inch or so to go, slowly turn the prop ccw until the drive shaft splines engage with the crank and it will pop up. Usually only need minor movement of the prop. Install a bolt. Now use needle nose pliers to guide the shift rod into the coupler as you shift back into neutral. Ensure the detent in the shaft is perfectly lined up with the hole, and install the bolt. Test that all is well, spin the prop with your finger, should spin freely in neutral, then when you shift into forward or reverse lock up. If so, all is well.

Safety Note: Disconnect plug leads when doing this. Small possiblility it could start doing this.
 

samo_ott

Vice Admiral
Joined
Jun 18, 2006
Messages
5,125
Re: '56 Fastwin 15 vs. Canadian bedrock (bedrock wins)

Hmmm... That was long winded! The 56 15's are excellent engines. I also have never had a reed valve issue (at least not that I know of!). Start off with the test that HighTrim suggested. You have to start from the basics probably. I have the parts manual for that engine if you want to PM me your email address and model #. Then you can compare the pics in it to what you found inside but it is likely the exhaust tube.
 

J_48_Johnson

Cadet
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
10
Re: '56 Fastwin 15 vs. Canadian bedrock (bedrock wins)

Our Canadian waters are treacherous arent they, lol!

Anyways, let me see if I can even remember all your questions. I forget quickly.

Start with a compression test. Always step number 1 in a no start scenario. Also, if it doesnt start it 10 pulls it likely isnt going to start, so stop pulling :)

Now if compression is good, test the spark. It should jump a 1/4" gap on an inline tester with a bright blue ZAP on both cylinders.

If you have good compression, and spark, spray some premixed fuel directly into the cylinder and try again. If it fires for a couple seconds, there is a fuel delivery issue that needs dealing with.

Reed valves are rarely the problem. I have hundreds of 50s OMCS and dont think I have ever had a set go bad. Not to say it doesnt happen, but not one of the first things to look at is all.

Can you post a pic of the pieces you found?

High Trim:
The compression check is a good idea, I'll borrow the tester from my buddy when I take the flywheel puller back to him. I'll also test the spark to see what I get. I hope you're right about the reed valves not usually being the problem. As far as the pieces I found, I'll find them and post pics of them on here if I can figure out how to do so. (I belong in a boat, not on the internet)
 

J_48_Johnson

Cadet
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
10
Re: '56 Fastwin 15 vs. Canadian bedrock (bedrock wins)

sometimes a good whack on the lu can sheer a flywheel key.
nwcove: That's what I was thinking as well, but I took it off along the way and found nothing to be wrong with the top end at all. (Top end meaning pull rope section, flywheel, and the entire stator plate taken off), down to checking the key in the "cam" that holds it to the crankshaft.
 

J_48_Johnson

Cadet
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
10
Re: '56 Fastwin 15 vs. Canadian bedrock (bedrock wins)

By the way, where did you boat>? Sounds like you were in my neck of the woods.

To reinstall gearcase, put shifter into forward gear and dont worry about it just yet. That will move the coupler up and out of the way.

Now grease the water line, and grommet to help them slide together.

Put the gearcase in reverse, and start sliding it up. First watch to ensure the water line goes into the grommet. Now it will stop with about an inch or so to go, slowly turn the prop ccw until the drive shaft splines engage with the crank and it will pop up. Usually only need minor movement of the prop. Install a bolt. Now use needle nose pliers to guide the shift rod into the coupler as you shift back into neutral. Ensure the detent in the shaft is perfectly lined up with the hole, and install the bolt. Test that all is well, spin the prop with your finger, should spin freely in neutral, then when you shift into forward or reverse lock up. If so, all is well.

Safety Note: Disconnect plug leads when doing this. Small possiblility it could start doing this.

High Trim: We were fishing the York and Little Mississippi Rivers From Silgrey's camp to Loney's Chutes through Conroy's Marsh. I was up by Loney's Chutes when I hit a rock just out of the channel, just below the water line. The water goes from 17 feet to four feet in a hurry. The rock on the other hand is always at lower unit height. lol From Hamilton, take the 401 to 62 to Bancroft. Get on 28 and follow it to Boulter Rd. Take it to Hass, and from there to Havergal. It takes you right into Silgrey's at the Conroy Rapids.
 

J_48_Johnson

Cadet
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
10
Re: '56 Fastwin 15 vs. Canadian bedrock (bedrock wins)

Hmmm... That was long winded! The 56 15's are excellent engines. I also have never had a reed valve issue (at least not that I know of!). Start off with the test that HighTrim suggested. You have to start from the basics probably. I have the parts manual for that engine if you want to PM me your email address and model #. Then you can compare the pics in it to what you found inside but it is likely the exhaust tube.

samo_ott: I have the manual for the engine, I bought it as soon as I got the motor because I had a hunch I would need it. No where in my manual does it show or say anything about an exhaust tube, but I'm thinking that's what it is. If I would have thought about it before putting the lower unit back on I would have tried to get a picture of the casting where the pieces in question were lodged. It is shaped sort of like a rounded triangle, and the pieces had to be blocking it at least some of it, so I think if/when I get this thing running again I'll have more power than I ever had before. Thank you for offering to use your manual though, very nice indeed.
 
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