60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

[AaronMeier2881]

Hi all. I just picked up a 60's model johnson 25 HP, and there are a few things I am a little concerned about. I was hoping someone here might be kind enough to pass along a few opinions on the situation.

The issue is threefold. First, the problem with getting the motor started...it takes a half dozen pulls or so to fire when cold, and once it gets going, it tends to rev up and down with the throttle stationary for a few minutes, then it seems to iron itself out. I installed a fuel filter and replaced the plugs, but this did nothing to fix the issue. Also, after a 20 minute run, the brand new plugs were oily and black, and fairly wet.

Secondly, after running it in a barrel for 20 minutes or so, a thick, black oil slick rose up. I have heard some folks say this is normal for older motors, and is mostly carbon and unburned fuel, but there seems to be quite a bit of it. If not bad for the motor, it must surely be bad for the environment.

And finally, the lower unit oil...I drained it to check the color and find out if that could be what was leaking out into the water. What I found was about 12 oz. of creamy light brown oil. No foam, no metal shavings, and I'm not sure if the color qualifies as "milky." It's about halfway between amber and white gravy. Is this normal?

One more thing...upper of the two oil changing screws on the lower unit is frozen solid. Any tips on loosening that bad boy?

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: 60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

What fuel/oil ratio are you mixing at? Sounds like it's running rich from the mixture or the carbs could use a cleaning and adjustment. Hard to tell on the lower unit fluid without seeing it. Normally milky fluid is a sign that water has made it's way in. Are there any traces of water in the fluid? On the frozen screws, a handheld impact driver should pop them loose quick. Use the correct size screwdriver head (Large)..A little more history on the engine would also help with the running problems....

 

[AaronMeier2881]

Re: 60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

What fuel/oil ratio are you mixing at? Sounds like it's running rich from the mixture or the carbs could use a cleaning and adjustment. Hard to tell on the lower unit fluid without seeing it. Normally milky fluid is a sign that water has made it's way in. Are there any traces of water in the fluid? On the frozen screws, a handheld impact driver should pop them loose quick. Use the correct size screwdriver head (Large)..A little more history on the engine would also help with the running problems....

Rick,

Thanks for the reply. I'm running it at a 50:1 mixture. I put the lower unit oil in a clear container, and so far, no sign of seperation. I will let it sit overnight and check again in the morning. As far as the history, the only thing I know about it is that it was sold to a local mechanic who replaced the points and the water pump, and painted it before selling it to me. I have no idea if he even touched the carb. I will put a call in to him to find out though. Any idea where I might find the serial number? The entire exterior of the motor was repainted, so there are no brand or model insignias at all.

By the way, a better description of the lower unit oil would probably be tan colored.

Thanks!

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: 60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

Your lower unit oil may not separate. The gear oil for outboards is meant to emulsify better than most oils so that if water does get in, lubrication will still happen. Sounds like you need to re-seal the lower unit.

 

[Chinewalker]

Re: 60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

Also, let's get the year on this thing. They made the small 25s for a number of years, and 1970s models have a different ignition system than the late 1960s models. The 1970s system, in my experience, tends to run darker on the plugs if it is not set up perfectly. Point gaps have to be set at exactly 180 degrees opposite to get them to work right. That goes for most 2-cylinders, but is especially critical on OMCs with the maker point ignitions (coils on the cylinder head, points and driver coil under the flywheel).
- Scott

 

[AaronMeier2881]

Re: 60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

Ok, I spoke to the man who sold me the motor, and according to him, this is an early 60's model. That kind of confused me, since I can't seem to find anything on a 25 HP Johnson that predates 1969. He also says that the serial # plates, both on the mount and the motor, have been removed by previous owner(s) and are nowhere to be found. He did say that parts from late 50's models would fit.

He also told me that he cleaned the carb before selling it, and that the problems I'm experiencing when I first crank it up might be from a faulty fuel pump diaphragm. I asked him about the lower unit situation, and he says that a little water in the oil is normal for older motors, and is nothing to worry about. Obviously this is not ideal, but is the little that might be in there enough to cause serious damage? Should I double up on how often I lube the lower unit?

I can't really see dumping a ton of money into this motor, as it is mainly just something I picked up for relatively cheap until I can afford something better. I obviously want to maintain it and keep it running, but I don't know how interested I am in trying to achieve mechanical perfection from it.

 

[F_R]

Re: 60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

The factory said to change the lower unit oil regularly. Why? Because of the possibility of some water getting into it as well as wear particles. Change the oil and look at it again after a few outings. You can live with some leakage by regular changes.

The scunge that comes out the exhaust is normal. Maybe not too nice for the environment, but that's just the way it is. If you are concerned about the environment use full synthetic TC-W3 outboard oil for less smoke and biodegradeable. I do. Cost's more.....so?

 

[AaronMeier2881]

Re: 60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

Ok, first of all...thanks to everyone for their help and advice so far. It is greatly appreciated.

Secondly, I pulled the cowling apart, and I found what I think is the infamous silver stamped disc on top of the engine. The only number on it was 0584817, which I assume is the serial number. Is there any way to find out the model number and year from this information?

 

[Chinewalker]

Re: 60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

That might be a replacement powerhead number as I am pretty sure Johnson was well into their third million motors in the 1960s. You are correct in that the 25 came about in 1969. The prior 25 was MUCH different, last being built in 1955.

Are your ignition coils mounted on the cylinder head? If so, then it is no older than 1973. If the spark plug wires come out from under the flywheel, then it is a 1969-1972 model.

In either case, it might be worth it to clean and gap the points (.020") and give the ignition a good twice-over....
- Scott

 

[AaronMeier2881]

Re: 60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

That might be a replacement powerhead number as I am pretty sure Johnson was well into their third million motors in the 1960s. You are correct in that the 25 came about in 1969. The prior 25 was MUCH different, last being built in 1955.

Are your ignition coils mounted on the cylinder head? If so, then it is no older than 1973. If the spark plug wires come out from under the flywheel, then it is a 1969-1972 model.

In either case, it might be worth it to clean and gap the points (.020") and give the ignition a good twice-over....
- Scott

Scott,
Thanks for the info. The spark plug wires do indeed come from under the flywheel, so at least that helps me put a rough date on the motor. One other thought...the man who sold it to me was confident that it was an early 60's 25 HP. Obviously he is wrong about one of those pieces of information...maybe he's wrong about the HP rating? I don't suppose there is any way to tell that without jumping through a lot of hoops to do tests.

Would pictures help in the ID process? Maybe someone might recognize the motor or something about it that might help refine the search. I will try to get a few posted on here by tonight. Can photos be attached to posts on this forum?

 

[Chinewalker]

Re: 60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

Yes, photos can be uploaded. They have to be fairly small, though. Click the "Go Advanced" button to get the full featured reply form...

The 25 looks a lot like, and shares a lot with, it's 18hp stablemate. Both are 22 cubic inches and share the same basic chassic. Several internal powerhead differences which account for the extra seven ponies... On viewing photos we should be able to tell you that it is at least an 18 or 25...
- Scott

 

[AaronMeier2881]

Re: 60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

Ok, here are the pics, one for each side of the engine. Thanks to anybody who can help ID this motor, and special thanks to Scott for shedding a good bit of light on the problem already.

 

[AaronMeier2881]

Re: 60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

And here's one of what the lower unit oil I removed yesterday looks like now.

 

[F_R]

Re: 60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

Well to begin with, that's not a Johnson cowling. It's a Gale. That's not to say that somebody hasn't put a 30hp Johnson powerhead on it, if that is maroon paint on the powerhead. Gale Buccaneer was more brownish. The 30 was only made one year, 1956. The Gale 22 & 25 was made 1955-1959 with the metal hood. Powerheads all look alike. That's a Gale fuel pump on the side.

I say you have a Gale with possibly a Johnson powerhead, not positive.

 

[AaronMeier2881]

Re: 60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

Well to begin with, that's not a Johnson cowling. It's a Gale. That's not to say that somebody hasn't put a 30hp Johnson powerhead on it, if that is maroon paint on the powerhead. Gale Buccaneer was more brownish. The 30 was only made one year, 1956. The Gale 22 & 25 was made 1955-1959 with the metal hood. Powerheads all look alike. That's a Gale fuel pump on the side.

I say you have a Gale with possibly a Johnson powerhead, not positive.

Wow. Honestly, I have had the thought that this might not be a true Johnson, but hearing it from someone else...

Can anybody else confirm this? I would really appreciate any feedback. Thanks.

 

[F_R]

Re: 60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

Here's the Gale cowling, 1957 version
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s311/frankr_photos/Pg73TrimGroupwRecoilStarter.jpg?t=1179843830

 

[Chinewalker]

Re: 60's 25 HP Johnson...Problems or Paranoia?

Yep, that is definitely not the motor I was thinking of. It may very well be a 1957 Gale 25, or one of the "house brand" motors sold under other brands, but still made by Gale, such as Monkey Wards Sea King, Eatons Viking, ELTO (in Canada), Good Year Sea Bee, or the like...

Basically good motors - real stump pullers with excellent low end grunt. Parts are fairly easy to come by - share much with similar era Johnson and Evinrude "Big Twin" models. I would start with a compression check and go from there. A carb rebuilt with new gaskets, needle packing, etc. would probably help a lot. Also, check the coils for cracks or a heavily "chalked" appearance. Let us know what you find...
- Scott