68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

I have a question concerning the sliding hard top on the 8-teen and the 19. Will they interchange? The reason I ask is looking at the various photos here of the 19, the top look a bit more streamlined and the roof handles are a nice practical addition.
 

Woodonglass

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25,929
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

More info from the Old Marine Mechanic...

"FUEL:

The marine carburetor will be a little different, designed so that the float bowls don't vent into the engine compartment, although the differences are rather subtle (at least to my eye).

The fuel pump has one major difference: it is designed to contain the fuel in the event of a ruptured diaphragm. It is common for a fuel pump to fail by rupturing the diaphragm, which allows gas to leak onto the side where it wasn't intended to be. This gas will then either leak out onto the ground or into the crankcase. For a car, onto the ground is preferred, but on a boat either case is really, really bad! A standard solution to this problem is to have a double diaphragm, with a drain between them. If the primary diaphragm ruptures, the gas will be contained by the second diaphragm and flow out the drain. This drain typically has a hose (usually clear) attached to it which leads up to the carburetor intake. Any gas that leaks is dumped into the carb, and if the leak gets bad enough it will flood the engine, which is a lot better than blowing you to smithereens!


ELECTRICAL:

Starter, alternator: rotating shafts with electrical contacts, they make sparks! Sparks will ignite fumes! To prevent the sparks from blowing up the entire boat, a marine starter and alternator will have flame suppression on the cases. The starter and alternator are NOT sealed, they have what is essentially a flame arrester between the source of sparks and the outside. It is possible for a small amount of gas fumes to enter the starter/alternator and be ignited, but the case will hold the small explosion and the flame arrester will prevent the fumes in the boat from being ignited. This flame arrester may look like nothing more than a small screen, but it is so important!

Distributor: Same flame arrester idea as the starter. The advance curves for an automobile are usually not the best for a boat, so you are better off with a marine distributor anyway.


While the fuel system modifications are intended to prevent any combustible fumes from being accumulated, the electrical system is designed to not ignite any such fumes that might be present. You may consider it redundant, but there are other ways to get gas fumes in
(such as while refueling) and other sources of ignition.

I highly recommend that you purchase the marine versions of the starter and alternator. You may choke when you see the price tags, but consider this: gas fumes are heavy, they settle to the bottom. The starter is located about as far down as anything can be. Gas fumes are most likely to settle when the boat is idle, which means that the starter is most likely to be the first electrical item operated. Starters, with out a doubt, make sparks. In other words, the greatest hazard comes from the starter. "
 

jbcurt00

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Joined
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Messages
25,113
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

I have a question concerning the sliding hard top on the 8-teen and the 19. Will they interchange? The reason I ask is looking at the various photos here of the 19, the top look a bit more streamlined and the roof handles are a nice practical addition.
The AristoCraft Parts:
For a complete listing of parts, click here.

As for a 9-teen top fitting an 8-teen hull, I'm not sure if the boat models changed much thru the years of production, the only 9-teen & 8-teen specs I checked show both having the same beam, 7' 7".

In theory 1 might work on the other, but are the windshields the same height (9-teens top is more streamlined & it appears to have a steeper rake to the windshield, might be the same, might be different), are the tops the same length fore & aft?

You may have to grab a 9-teen top & drop it on an 8-teen shell to see how things line up.
 

greenbush future

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 28, 2009
Messages
1,814
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

More info from the Old Marine Mechanic...

"FUEL:

The marine carburetor will be a little different, designed so that the float bowls don't vent into the engine compartment, although the differences are rather subtle (at least to my eye).

The fuel pump has one major difference: it is designed to contain the fuel in the event of a ruptured diaphragm. It is common for a fuel pump to fail by rupturing the diaphragm, which allows gas to leak onto the side where it wasn't intended to be. This gas will then either leak out onto the ground or into the crankcase. For a car, onto the ground is preferred, but on a boat either case is really, really bad! A standard solution to this problem is to have a double diaphragm, with a drain between them. If the primary diaphragm ruptures, the gas will be contained by the second diaphragm and flow out the drain. This drain typically has a hose (usually clear) attached to it which leads up to the carburetor intake. Any gas that leaks is dumped into the carb, and if the leak gets bad enough it will flood the engine, which is a lot better than blowing you to smithereens!


ELECTRICAL:

Starter, alternator: rotating shafts with electrical contacts, they make sparks! Sparks will ignite fumes! To prevent the sparks from blowing up the entire boat, a marine starter and alternator will have flame suppression on the cases. The starter and alternator are NOT sealed, they have what is essentially a flame arrester between the source of sparks and the outside. It is possible for a small amount of gas fumes to enter the starter/alternator and be ignited, but the case will hold the small explosion and the flame arrester will prevent the fumes in the boat from being ignited. This flame arrester may look like nothing more than a small screen, but it is so important!

Distributor: Same flame arrester idea as the starter. The advance curves for an automobile are usually not the best for a boat, so you are better off with a marine distributor anyway.


While the fuel system modifications are intended to prevent any combustible fumes from being accumulated, the electrical system is designed to not ignite any such fumes that might be present. You may consider it redundant, but there are other ways to get gas fumes in
(such as while refueling) and other sources of ignition.

I highly recommend that you purchase the marine versions of the starter and alternator. You may choke when you see the price tags, but consider this: gas fumes are heavy, they settle to the bottom. The starter is located about as far down as anything can be. Gas fumes are most likely to settle when the boat is idle, which means that the starter is most likely to be the first electrical item operated. Starters, with out a doubt, make sparks. In other words, the greatest hazard comes from the starter. "

I made the mistake of installing a automotive starter on a 302 marine, it lasted about 2 months. I was very lucky I didn't blow the entire boat out of the water. It ended up just costing me a bunch of extra $$, I was very lucky.
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

All good info and of course; I'm not interested in burning to the waterline by cutting corners on flame arrested requirements. The great thing about this swap is the marine part availability in the form of starters & alternators. Of course distributors are a thing of the past with crank fired ignition and sealed individual coil packs. The fuel pump will be isolated from the engine compartment (as in the car) the line will be braided stainless steel from the pump to the fuel rail to prevent rupture & because the fuel rail is a return setup, unused fuel passes back into the tank in a circuit with the vent located on the outside rear of the hull using an inline check valve to prevent backwash entry. As in a car these are closed fuel systems like the Mercruiser race/performance MPI set-ups which were taken from GM & Delphi. The bilge vent fan will be upgraded past overkill for safety reasons as well. I don't foresee a problem though they will certainly arise when doing this type of initial swap, thanks for the reminders they are appreciated.

When it has finished, I'll know exactly what to include in a kit to supply for those wishing to do the same power swap. Certain Glastron models seem popular so after this one maybe another, I'll grab one of them and upgrade it as well, we'll see, complete this one first and see if I like the result, if it's worth the time and effort for a good ROI. I only need one power & one sail to be happy.
 

jbcurt00

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Staff member
Joined
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Messages
25,113
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

The AristoCraft Parts:
For a complete listing of parts, click here.

As for a 9-teen top fitting an 8-teen hull, I'm not sure if the boat models changed much thru the years of production, the only 9-teen & 8-teen specs I checked show both having the same beam, 7' 7".

In theory 1 might work on the other, but are the windshields the same height (9-teens top is more streamlined & it appears to have a steeper rake to the windshield, might be the same, might be different), are the tops the same length fore & aft?

You may have to grab a 9-teen top & drop it on an 8-teen shell to see how things line up.
bump ^^^
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

It's ok, I have already bought parts from the guys and intend to acquire a few more as well.
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

This evening I was researching flotation replacement. I simply do not like the foam...period. Do any of you know anybody that has used Polystyrene (EPS) covered blocks? They are routinely used in floating dock assembly, impervious to water and inclement temperature ranges. I have found them in all shapes and sizes and feel they could be made to fit key locations. They will add some structural support but based upon location under the liner, probably not like the original soggy foam which spread everywhere under the floor in the bilge area. At any rate I have decided to install another drain on the transom as low as possible in the V, when the boat is trailered and stored under the carport for the winter it can remain open for any drainage.

What is the quick answer on flotation as required by law, is it only when manufactured, or does it legally need to be replaced when a boat is restored privately? From a safety standpoint I get the reasoning but is it a legal requirement?
 

jbcurt00

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Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

This evening I was researching flotation replacement. I simply do not like the foam...period. Do any of you know anybody that has used Polystyrene (EPS) covered blocks? They are routinely used in floating dock assembly, impervious to water and inclement temperature ranges. I have found them in all shapes and sizes and feel they could be made to fit key locations. They will add some structural support but based upon location under the liner, probably not like the original soggy foam which spread everywhere under the floor in the bilge area. At any rate I have decided to install another drain on the transom as low as possible in the V, when the boat is trailered and stored under the carport for the winter it can remain open for any drainage.

What is the quick answer on flotation as required by law, is it only when manufactured, or does it legally need to be replaced when a boat is restored privately? From a safety standpoint I get the reasoning but is it a legal requirement?

As backyard boat builders, there is no legal requirement for flotation foam.

Personally I'd have trouble selling an asset that's supposed to have flotation, but doesn't, even w/ full disclosure by me at sale. Not really the same, but I consider it like replacing the airbag equipped steering wheel w/ a similar wheel w/out the airbag. That is only my personal opinion and my own weird view on flotation, or more accurately it's removal.

Many manufacturers considered the sealed below deck area (w/ NO drain hole) an air chamber that provided flotation, and promoted it in their sales literature as a notable feature of their hulls, until the USCG reg changed & they had to provide positive flotation (1972-3+/-).

Properly installed, in a boat that is kept bow high, drain plug out, and generally well maintained, pourable foam is, IMO, the best alternative available, by far. It isn't the foam that is the problem, there are several examples of both fiberglass & tin boats w/ fairly old flotation foam, installed, doing what it's supposed to, decades later. They are few & far between, and certainly there are significantly more threads w/ the typical funky, waterlogged foam below decks. Bad ownership, not poor product choice.

Free floating under a dock, I suspect they may be less prone to waterlogging vs sealed below decks. But if you were here, we could take a 20min drive to a local marina that pulls their dock sections annually & frequently replace the EPS blocks that are in fact, now, waterlogged. There are plenty of Starcraft tin boat threads that had EPS (typical styrofoam like used in coolers) flotation foam and it became water logged. Since most of the SC rebuilds are tin & don't depend on the foam for structural support of the boat hull & decking (usually) many choose to use Foamular (XPS) insulation sheets (green, blue & pink, available in several thicknesses, @HD & Lowes) which are a much better choice for use as flotation foam.

EPS dock blocks are also often available coated, w/ a rubberized or truck bedliner type material. Encased in that, the EPS is obviously much less likely to ever become waterlogged, but to fit below decks, I suspect they would have to be cut to fit. That negates the benefit of whatever the block was covered w/.
 

Mud Puppy

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Messages
276
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

This evening I was researching flotation replacement. I simply do not like the foam...period. Do any of you know anybody that has used Polystyrene (EPS) covered blocks?

What kinda water you gonna "soak" her in? Makes a difference in buoyancy between lake and surf.

Might want to do some neutral buoyancy calcs too using the H[SUP]2[/SUP]O type. Most pourable foam weighs less than sheet foam. That being said you could be adding several pounds (a hundred REAL EASY on something that large) to the boat just by changing type of foam, and if it is encapsulated, even more.

You may have to fill the gunnels with foam to keep her afloat if the hull is ever breached.

I don't think I would want the liability if you should ever sell her; plus I wouldn't be able to sleep at nights if I did.
 

Woodonglass

Supreme Mariner
Joined
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Messages
25,929
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

This evening I was researching flotation replacement. I simply do not like the foam...period.
Curious as to what specifically it is that you don't like about the 2-part pour in foam. Then new stuff is not like the old stuff.
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Messages
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Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

I'm looking for a better method than mix and pour and hope it goes where it's supposed to becoming a structural part of the flooring support even though saturated foam is a great support structure, there was no sponginess in the floor on this boat. I read the "air cavity flotation" ads and thought if water can get in, air will get out but what the heck it's advertising.

I need to install some stringers for floor support, the fuel cell will need to be boxed. By extending the box to the floor I will use it as a center floor support rising above the fuel cell, it will be mounted just aft of amidships centerline with dimensions of 48"L X 24.4"W X 7.8"H. The engine bay directly below the oil pan will be deepened to the hull for oil pan clearance also allowing a bilge pump located beneath the engine & the new hull drain.

If the center bilge is open bow to stern say 18"either side of center line and I run a stringer isolating the remaining area between the 18"and the gunnel on both sides the length of the hull below the deck, I could pour a closed cell foam there which should be about 40 inches wide although decreasing in thickness as it ascends to the gunnel approx. 14 to 15 feet of the length of the hull. I have read some stats on the EPS stating a 5 cubic foot area weighs 15 lbs. but floats 55 lbs. of weight. Your reasoning on the foam environment under decks is sound though I believe trimmed to fit the contours of the hull it could be inserted creating a safe floatation without any real deterioration for many years and allow any water seepage to pass and enter the bilge so the pump can remove it thereby never again becoming saturated.

I understand the need for flotation and won't go without something that basically floats the boat but it can not be the old stuff, I'd rather tread water for days than suffer through that removal again.
 
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jbcurt00

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Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

You can pour the foam BEFORE you drop the deck on, and ensure full expansion & completely fill the nooks & crannies, but then you have to trim the foam flush to the top of the stringers. That makes the closed cell foam, open, where ever you trim it.

It's sort of no win, IMO. The pros of using pour in far outweigh the cons, and not getting as much flotation value below decks as possible just isn't possible w/ cut to fit sheet goods, and it typically doesn't add much if any structural support. And the problem isn't really the foam....

Thinking thru several options and choosing what will work best for them & their constraints of time, budget & how they're rebuilding the boat is usually the way most proceed. As before, as best you can, as safe as you can & keep moving forward.

And most boats have places, esp up under the gunwale, that additional foam can be added. Under the bow cover, behind any finish coverings is another.............
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

I understand. I did not take the deck off seeing no reason to do so. I made a tool that removed the foam where I could not reach that crumbled it and then vacuumed it away. Had I removed the deck, I can understand the easy to fill and trim, I understand the issue with cut & fit as well. dilemma time, it needs floatation.
Is there a non porous, closed cell foam that can be poured in to the places Below the deck that cut & fit will not easily work? I'm not concerned with structural integrity around the center of the deck it will require bracing with the new fuel cell location anyway, the sides are my concern now.
 

jbcurt00

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Messages
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Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

I understand. I did not take the deck off seeing no reason to do so. I made a tool that removed the foam where I could not reach that crumbled it and then vacuumed it away. Had I removed the deck, I can understand the easy to fill and trim, I understand the issue with cut & fit as well. dilemma time, it needs floatation.
Is there a non porous, closed cell foam that can be poured in to the places Below the deck that cut & fit will not easily work? I'm not concerned with structural integrity around the center of the deck it will require bracing with the new fuel cell location anyway, the sides are my concern now.


From US Composites pour in foam specs:
[SIZE=+1]Urethane Pour Foam Overview[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1](see product FAQ section for more information)[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=-1]This two-part liquid, expanding rigid urethane foam is a closed cell, pourable foam, which will resist the absorption of water.[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=-1]The densities shown refer to the weight per cubic foot of expanded foam (12" x 12" x 12").[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=-1]Once fully cured this foam can be laminated over with any type of polyester, epoxy or vinyl ester resin without melting.[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=-1]This product can be poured in multiple layers with excellent bonding between layers. [/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=-1]All expansion rates and times given are temperature critical. Temperatures below 75 degrees F will lower the expansion rate therefore requiring more foam. Ideal working temperature is 75 to 80 degrees F or above.[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=-1]Accurate measuring of these products is extremely critical.
    [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]Find our selection of measuring containers here.[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=-1]Working time before foaming: approx. 45 seconds[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=-1]Time before full expansion: approx. 5 minutes[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=-1]The lightweight foam is commonly used for filling voids, filling under decks and practically any other flotation or insulation application. Higher densities are used for architectural castings, support applications and has virtually an unlimited number of potential uses.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]2 LB [/SIZE]Density Urethane Foam
(U.S. Coast Guard Compliant Marine Foam)
Common Applications: Our 2LB density marine foam is recommended for void filling in nonstructural applications. This product can be poured underneath decks and inside cavities where a lightweight flotation foam is needed to provide buoyancy. This foam has been tested in accordance with U.S. Coast Guard Regulation # 33 CFR 183.114 . This foam is approximately 95-98% closed cell which resists absorbing water, however continuous water submersion can eventually lead to loss of buoyancy over a period of years. We recommend this product strictly for flotation applications. If looking for a liquid foam for sculpting or casting we recommend using at minimum our 3LB or 4LB density. More questions?

[SIZE=-1]Cat No.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Kit Size[/SIZE][SIZE=-2](net weight)[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Approx. Coverage[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Price[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]FOAM-0204[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]4 LB Kit[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]2 Cubic Feet[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]FOAM-0216[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]16 LB Kit[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]8 Cubic Feet[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]FOAM-0280[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]80 LB Kit[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]40 Cubic Feet[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]5 or more kits of the FOAM-0280[/SIZE]
Product Information:
Free Rise Density: 2.0 lbs per cubic ft.
Expansion Rate: Approx. 25-30x Liquid Volume
Buoyancy (flotation): 60 LBs per Cubic Ft.


*Physical Properties:
Parallel Compressive Strength: 40 psi
Tensile Strength: 30 psi
Shear Strength: 30 psi
Flexural Strength: 50 psi



2lb is primarily flotation foam, 3lb & 4lb are also available, but per expanded CF of foam they offer flotation
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Thanks Supreme. Isn't this the company offering glass mats & weaves as well as epoxy resins? Thanks for helping out, I do appreciate the info.

Doug
 

jbcurt00

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Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Thanks Supreme.....
Wow, not even the Admiral calls me that :facepalm:

Yep, same outfit for glass & resin. Other vendors sell the foam too, depending on where you're located, another might be closer & less shipping for it all.

Iboats, our gracious host, also now stocks resins & cloths so check them out too.

BTW: It's John..
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Thank you John, pleasure meeting you electronically.
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

More nonsense thought I would show what I found. When initially supplying a battery 12v to the entire system several things didn't work, ok I thought age, parts death whatever they were being replaced as necessary. Trim pump which looked rather newish non operational, bilge pump that looked 90+ engaged albeit weird sounding and slightly melted.
13011546025_53cb1860a1_z.jpg

13011545695_73bd8ee03c_z.jpg


Red leads to grounds, green leads to positive, exposed soldered wires going to both. When I looked under the dash at the gauge wiring, I decided to rewire the entire boat properly with bus bars both negative & positive using a fuse block, more to follow I'm sure.

Photo 1, with the short red 14 ga wire was tied to the negative side of the trim pump
Photo 2, shows the connection of the bilge pump to the gang ground
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Hi Guys,
Finished stripping the wiring harness and many added wires over the years; never can catch the clown that uses speaker wire to power things, or the trusty home extension cord guru that takes a brown 8 footer, cuts the ends off, twists it around +/- leads and lets her rip, these guys drive me nuts. Removed the gauges, the speedo, cig lighter, basically all the 68 art deco stuff. Was able to untangle the engine to gauge harness from the added trim pump harness, both is great shape with no excess resistance in the lines.

13048371963_bd2f0585ab.jpg

13048372533_f1bd68ce1f_z.jpg


I figure I have a few more hours of cleaning/stripping then it's back to work so it will be awhile before I begin rebuilding the thing, I have acquired the lumber I intend to use for boxing the fuel cell, perhaps wood would be a better description, removed all I need for templates from the boat. I used my pressure washer to slice through the old gunnel carpet and glue w/o hurting the fiberglass leaving the sidewalls bare and beautiful and drilled the new transom drain which worked very well. Now I itch like the dog and am retiring for the evening, I do believe. Be Safe! More to follow.
I ordered a gallon of "lizard skin" for the engine bay sound & temp deadening, if you have not tried this stuff, it works great for sound & heat insulation. We use it in our race cars to keep exhaust heat out and track noise down. Good Stuff.
 
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