68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Corjen1

Lieutenant Junior Grade
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1,237
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Cool boat! think Ill tag along and see how she turns out...
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

All day to remove rub rails, striped screws, and sanding, I did get the bow navigation light trimmed, but only a small section of sanding on the cap.
13391730645_6c6927cea2_c.jpg


Sanding is like an all day sucker
 

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
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Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Hi Scott, thanks for the input. As to the knowledge insulting, not happening from me. My assumption was both Mercury & Volvo and others use automotive long blocks for their marine engines (Oldsmobile rings a bell), as does Yamaha, OMC and a host of others, and for many, many years, speaking only in terms of I/O power plants, I know nothing of outboards. Is this not correct?
I know cam timing differs, certainly rotation at times differs, incidental items like plugs in the water jackets, gasket materials and the like, baffles in the oil pans, placement of the oil pickup, I get all this. Here is what I do know. The basic block and heads from a automotive LS, modified for marine use, are significantly less expensive than the same item stamped marine.

By purchasing a LS1 or LS2 from a vehicle, ( the majority being sold currently with the ECM, full uncut harness, all accessories including the transmission either 6 speed Richmond Gear, or L460E automatic in the $3000-$4000 range, I can lay down (automotive term) all the things that do not go on my boat for nearly as much as the total purchase price of the powertrain thereby making my LS1 or LS2 FREE or nearly so! I have 2 standing offers for the 6 speed @ $2,500. That is the reasoning behind the automotive purchase. I have already researched the cam profile with the cam maker that grinds our GT, GT2 & GT3 BMW M3 cams for our competition cars, he told me no problem.
As for outdrives, I have a Bravo 1, (another buddy donated it for the project) if I use the LS2 (more plentiful) the engine produces stock the max HP limit for the Bravo 1, so I move up to an XR outdrive. That's the way projects go.

I like to cruise and quietly, to that end & built my way, I will be able to achieve 60mph @ 3500 rpm, using a 27 pitch prop, 1.36:1 Bravo 1, with .088 prop slippage. This is acceptable for me after all not much chance doing this speed on a river and why would you want to? You would miss all the nature but crossing the lake is another matter all together, 60mph is a stable, safe cruising speed for a boat hull this well built.

So there you have it, don't feel you need to pick the gauntlet up for the others here, I was not insulting them rather I was thinking aloud & I am certain if they have a problem with what I have stated, they would say something to me...like you did.

BTW, I passed on the pourable transom repair, just not for me and this project, I want solid known safety for this project, it's all about the LS series engine, great power to weight ratio and the next up & coming marine power plant.

Regards,

Doug

Doug,

I commend you for the work on the boat, still going to caution you on the motor part.

Marine motors are basically tow truck motors with a single gear. If you can hit 60mph at 3500, you need to patten your mix because it hasnt been done to date. cam LSA is different between the car and boat, not to mention the lift and duration. think more tow truck in a constant up-hill pull of a max load than a GT, GT2 or GT3 car. however there are plenty of marine LS cams on the market, so instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, just buy one.

block and head castings are the same between automotive and marine, however that is where the digging in the parts bin stops. Oil pans, pickup tubes are industrial motor only units. intake manifolds, especially for PCM, Ilmor and Indmar are proprietary. Volvo and Mercruiser use the GM industrial fare, however Mercury Racing uses their own proprietary. Each Marinizer designs their own exhaust castings, using primarily Buddy Barr and Osco foundries

remember to use a heat exchanger, especially if you decide to put the boat in salt water. I would recommend a full system. At 500hp, your looking at a 6" x 24" shell and tube hx in a full sytem and a 5" in a half system

reverse rotation has gone by way of dinosaur since the efficiency of the drives has gone up. in twin applications, one gear is simply running backwards.

On the other note, since you passed on the pourable taransom, I would suggest re-unsing end-grain balsa and vacuum bagging it. I would probably do a sandwich of 'glass, balsa, 'glass, balsa' glass, balsa, glass. mainly because 1/2" balsa core is nearly dirt cheap. However 3/4" balsa is not to much more.

Where in Florida is your property?
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Hi Scott,
Crestview, North of Ft. Walton Beach, actually just off I-10. I spend most of my time now between my Baton Rouge home & my place in Houston where I work as an analyst in the energy sector.

I did not intend to imply I would use an endurance grind (top end power) cam like those in the M3's. This company grinds cams from billet stock, it would be a marine application grind although I have not gotten far enough at this point to supply the specs I'm looking for.

There are now single & dual plane, medium & high rise, spread bore & square bore aluminum intakes available & approved for marine use along with CG approved ignition controllers allowing the crank fire ignition to work w/o fuel injection and the ECM. This will greatly simplify the project. I'll work the fuel injection later as time allows. I still believe MPI is the way to go for efficiency & linear response.

I have found exhaust manifolds from mild to wild, evidence of the gaining popularity of the LS series V8. In a pinch I found and verified that 351 Cleveland manifolds have the same flange size and port location requiring the tapping & threading of a couple spots to connect them, That was a last ditch option after I located aluminum LS manifolds for $1250 a set. I can live with that. Ilmor gets about $3k for the ones I found. Can't live with that.

I can't do the balsa replacement. As Wood said it would be nearly impossible not having access to the necessary equipment to bag & vacuum. We have the stuff necessary to bag race car aerodynamics, we build our own diffusers and splitters, brake ducts and various other pieces from carbon fiber but these are small by comparison. I have studied many of the threads and Youtube videos concerning the stringer & transom replacement procedures & feel confident in this area and there is help a click away.

I have thought more about the closed cooling and agree that it will be a necessity. To that end I added it to my list of items that require planning for engine room sake. Fortunately it will not be in the 500 hp area of fun, the 345hp LS1 for 2001 should be adequate for what I want. Closed cooling will mean I can take my 88 yr. old Dad to lunch on the water, I believe he will forgo his disdain for stinkpots for oysters and beer on Okaloosa Island. (He enjoys the hotrods we build, I have 6 brothers doing the same thing)

Thanks for the advice and comments, I do appreciate them,

Regards,

Doug
 

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
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Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

if you own a shop vac, a roll of heavy plastic and a roll of duct tape, you can get close to a perfect vaccuum. it is not good for the longevity of the shop vac, however it works.

hitek marine makes stainless manifolds in the $2k range, and if you watch ebay, there are take-offs on there every once in a while.
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

if you own a shop vac, a roll of heavy plastic and a roll of duct tape, you can get close to a perfect vaccuum. it is not good for the longevity of the shop vac, however it works.

hitek marine makes stainless manifolds in the $2k range, and if you watch ebay, there are take-offs on there every once in a while.

Thank you Scott. I have a compressed air operated vacuum pump, and a shop vac, the rest is easy to acquire. What are the advantages of bagging this size project? We do the small race pieces for saturation of the carbon fiber as well as finished appearance. But we use foam as a pattern so it's easy to get the required result.

Regards

Doug
 

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
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Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

vacuum bagging guarantees resin infusion. Our carbon fiber yacht stairs and other equipment is all bagged. Granted we paint it white after that. we are using carbon fiber for the strength and weight.
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Messages
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Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

vacuum bagging guarantees resin infusion. Our carbon fiber yacht stairs and other equipment is all bagged. Granted we paint it white after that. we are using carbon fiber for the strength and weight.


White is my color of choice and infusing epoxy into the wood is always stronger. I'll pick your brain more when the time arrives, I want to finish sanding the cap before I remove it and start on the transom & stringer area grinding...can't wait for that circus.

Regards,
 

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
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Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

its not my brain on the carbon fiber, we use a carbon guru. same guy that builds the carbon racing boats for americas cup.

however feel free to pick at the knowledge at my disposal.
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
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Messages
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Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

After what I just measured and decided, I will have too. Look at these photos, I was removing the windshield and hard top when I walked out to the mail box, when I turned around the corner back into the rear pad, I had a vision, I took my tape, measured the gunnel width, behind the windshield rearwards 3'5.5"and the measurements are the same all the way to the stern. Leaving room for the engine cover to open and close, I can re-locate the windshield using the original fiberglass by moving it rearwards and replacing the cut out area with a new panel on the forward deck. What the heck, a "resto-mod" boat.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22537764@N07/13411107624/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22537764@N07/13411107714/#
 
Last edited:

sphelps

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 16, 2011
Messages
11,475
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Moving the windshield /hard top back does make the boat look sleeker . Just remember it will cut your standing up and stretching area down quite a bit . I know with my H/T on headroom is minimal . Pretty cool idea though !
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

It's done! 3' 7.5" to the rear. Tomorrow I will center the cut out, trim the gunnels to fit and head to Oklahoma for a 3 month gig.
The photos did not come out this evening, so tomorrow. Thanks guys for the help, advise & friendship!

Regards,

Doug
P.S. The balsa info is neat, thank you Wood & Scott D.
 

Woodonglass

Supreme Mariner
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Dec 29, 2009
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25,929
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

To each his own, but personally, I don't like it. It just doesn't work for me, but hey if it works for you...Go For It!!!!
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

To each his own, but personally, I don't like it. It just doesn't work for me, but hey if it works for you...Go For It!!!!

I respect that...just can't stop hot-rodding.
 

jbcurt00

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Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Is there going to be any room at the engine cover to stand up w/ it moved that far back?

How far back does (did) the hardtop slide?

Looks not quite right to me, but if you like it.....

I might have considered a stretch of the hardtop rather then moving the windshield back, but I don't know if that'd look any better.....

Planning on adding a forward mounted fuel cell to offset further CB/CG changes?
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Is there going to be any room at the engine cover to stand up w/ it moved that far back?

How far back does (did) the hardtop slide?

Looks not quite right to me, but if you like it.....

I might have considered a stretch of the hardtop rather then moving the windshield back, but I don't know if that'd look any better.....

Planning on adding a forward mounted fuel cell to offset further CB/CG changes?

Yes the hatch will lift as planned, as you know one change necessitates another with that in mind I will modify the lower 1/2 of the original hatch into a stationary piece glassed into it's original location on the floor and sidewall while the top half loses the rear seat area and becomes re-contoured too match the original forward opening engine hatch cover as one piece. It will open by 12v rams on either side of the engine. This allows ample work/service space when needed.

I will re-check the measurements this morning on the top slide area but from a preliminary measurement last night, with the top slip back on the rails to the edge of the transom there is 2'9" of opening forward. Plenty of room to stand and stretch as necessary. Additionally with the top forward, there is plenty of engine hatch clearance to open without interference particularly because of the forward slash of the rear top mount.

The c/g was a matter of specific thought & research. In the transom area I removed approximately 1335 lbs. of cast iron 2.5 engine, outdrive, battery, 18 gal fuel steel fuel tank (when full weighing in @ 110 lbs.) On top of that there was a total of 312 lbs. of saturated foam with 2/3 of it behind the front seats going to the transom ( this had no effect on the dry weight and is not factored into the new c/g calculation). So I removed from the boat approximately 1335 lbs.
The aluminum V8 going back in with the Bravo 1 drive, 555 lbs. ( a 780 lb. difference in transom weight) which shifted the c/g forward. I will mount a 30 gallon (hull conforming fuel cell) permanently under the floor about where the front seats will attach ( this will add 184.5 lbs. when full) with 2/3 of the weight being towards the stern, the battery will remain in the transom area with a 2nd house battery installed. The foam will be replaced which will add weight, I believe we can balance somewhat with greater density foam where needed.

We will see how it shakes out. Greg can get us into the facility @ Michoud where we can measure and pinpoint the C/G and adjust weight bias before hitting the water should be a great riding boat for 4 individuals.
140325_0001 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
140326_0000 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

It will be unique
 

jbcurt00

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Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Well thought out ^^^

Thanks.

She's all yours, no reason you can make it even more so if you want to.

Access to Michoud sounds like a great buddy to have.

Details when the time comes, please. Oh & pix..
 
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