68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Yes, I have an idea I will get better in all aspects of this project. I have been sitting here thinking about it and realized I got in a hurry and forgot the basics of measuring many times and cutting once. Looking and exploring all actions for consequences and options. I will center the windshield side to side, lock it in place with blocks & screws which I can remove later, and simply slow down. Once it's all modified, and everything fits with the deck, hatch and transom wood, I'll take it all apart and start with the transom, stringers, flooring, then prepping for body work so to speak. I revised my timeline to next year, in the mean time, I'll do a little every weekend when I'm home and when finished, we'll go for a boat ride.

Regards & thanks for the comments!

Doug
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Sitting in my hotel room in Tulsa. Not a bad place, real nice looking lakes on the way up though not many if any boats, plenty of docks though...strange. Miss working on the boat would like to have completed more than I did. At any rate, still here, reading and attempting not to lose the thread, Ya'll take care, I'm in & out.

Be Safe!
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Let us talk about balsa. Rather you talk I'll listen, here is my question. The original transom was end grain balsa, lasting 46 years and would have lasted longer had the outdrive seal not gone away.
I have been researching the product and have found that combined with weave like Kevlar or a Kevlar/carbon fiber mat the strength is incomparable, more so using epoxy. I have also studied bagging and vacuum operations, speaking with guys that do this on a regular basis when making things of glass & Kevlar in odd and multiple angles with continued success. Price of materials not withstanding, I understand the price differential of Kevlar/carbon fiber mat, it might be more than I want to spend but I'll ask anyway.
The balsa is light, resistant to moisture, mildew and breakdown when sealed properly (mat & vacuum bagging). I read it is also lighter than ply by 27-30% while exhibiting greater strength and load bearing capability, so is it worth the effort & cost ?
Reading tells me the complex curve of the transom is no problem, perhaps the reason it was used when built. I was shown how to apply the vacuum bag to suck it up against the transom skin and I believe I can do this without problem as I have the necessary vacuum pump capable of pulling 1.5Hg.
With price of the parts & time involved being understood to be higher than using the proper ply for the transom, what other downsides am I not aware of?
 

Woodonglass

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
25,929
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Personally, I'd recommend a PM to ondarvr. He's one of the most knowledgeable members on the forum when it comes to Epoxy and various forms of glass. His guidance will be invaluable. By the Way... I Work and Live In Tulsa!!! When were you Here!!!!
 

jbcurt00

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
Messages
25,110
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

WOG he's there for a 30day gig.......

Wish I could answer epoxy, vac bagging & balsa cores w/ kevlar/carbon fiber questions. Interested to see what Ondrvr has to suggest or anyone else for that matter.
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Answered a PM. I have to head to Houston tomorrow but will return Sat or Sun and will give you a call, look forward to meeting and learning. This is Great! Thanks!
 

Mud Puppy

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Messages
276
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Lt. Dan, just a little insight on what little I know:

In aviation repairs, the composite is only as strong as the material used + the epoxy that is used with it and the curing temperature + the "clamping" system used.

The combination of the two (plus the cure temperature) yields either Tensile or Compressive strength or a combination of both. This can be augmented with applications of the same material in various warp-weft directions such as Ply1 0?, P2 90?, P3 45?, P4 90?, P5 0? overlapping only 1" at the seems. Sometimes layers of "Tape" are used usually running diagonally across a part. These layers usually do not overlap, but just butt together.

Also we use Ambient cure epoxies that can take up to 72 hours to achieve ultimate strength (many can be accelerated cured using up to 200?F temp by using heat lamps), but there are also epoxies that can be Portable Hotbond (heat pad cured), oven cured, or autoclave cured, all resulting in different Tensile Strength using the same adhesive system.

Kevlar, considered a Fiberglass, is stronger than regular glass, and Carbon Fabric is also stronger while being considerably lighter at the same time and there is also Boron which is used as well. There again, depending on which material you use, the thickness, and the weave, vast differences can be achieved. There are several different styles available, Plain Weave, Basket Weave, Leno Weave, Crows-foot, Satin, and Harness, all used for different reasons. Carbon fabric almost always uses a glass, sanding layer as a top layer. Kevlar fuzzes bad when cut so it is usually covered with glass too.

Most of what we use for small repairs (up to 3' by 6') is fabric and cold-bond epoxy, but when we are faced with larger repairs with multiple layers such as an Engine Cowl, we use Pre-Preg products (fabric per-impregnated with adhesives). There again the combination of material and adhesive is vast and the end strength is also vast. Just the difference between laying a pre-preg or hand reticulating a pre-preg can be several hundred psi in strength.

Vacuum is different than Air Pressure. Air lines can be increased in size and bends and Tees can be calculated for loss, however, distance is Vacuum's enemy. Keep vacuum lines short, under 10'-15' runs.

Vacuum, even using the best vacuum system will not develop absolute vacuum (which is 29.9 in.-Hg or roughly 14psi at sea level; those living in Denver will never see values this high). We have massive pumps and use venturii in addition and rarely create over 26 - 28 in. vacuum at a little over 1200ft elevation. if you can achieve 22 in. -Hg, that translates into around 10.8psi. which on a one square foot area (12" x 12" = 144 sq. in.) is over 1500lbs of pressure (144 sq. in. x 10.8psi = 1,555.2lbs) which is considerable pressure for clamping. Autoclaves use vacuum to hold the part in place and after the door is closed, the cavity of the clave is filled with either compressed air or dry Nitrogen for the "Holding Pressure". At that time the vacuum is usually removed for the cure. Holding Pressure can be as high as 45 to 90psi for composite assemblies.

When heat cured adhesives are used, various adhesives systems use different cure temperatures sometimes involving various elevated temperatures, the the later, higher temperatures known as "post-cure" to harden already cured adhesives and utilize sometimes hours to post-cure.

I spend hours daily comparing materials that were used at the time of manufacture with those that are available today, some being as weak as <1ksi to those when cured as high as 65ksi.

Our materials run 900$ to 2800$ per roll for 52" wide fabrics. Some are available "Cut" but usually there is a minimum buy and the price/ sq. ft. goes up on those purchases.

I can't remember what drive you are employing, but most MerCruisers call out a transom thickness of 2-2 1/4" (51-57mm) with the transom surfaces parallel to withing 0.125" (1/8" or 3.2mm) and the inner surface just as flat for the area covered by the transom plate, flat to 0.125" (1/8" or 3.2mm) while the outer surface flat within 0.0625" (1/16" or 1.6mm) for the Gimbal Housing Assembly regardless of any curve there may be in your transom.

Any built-up, whether balsa or ply, or even OSB (Orientated Strand Board (Waffler Board)) is a laminate. Laminates are employed all the time in all phases and walks of life, i.e. Press-Lam beams used in home construction have just about ended the use of bolted together dimensional S.P.F. (Spruce, Pine, or Fur) beams.

Marine epoxy adhesives systems are basically the same as aerospace/ aviation systems, two-component thixotropic ambient cure adhesives. Marine will try to sell the idea that theirs is impervious to water, while aerospace has to be impervious to moisture intrusion but capable of enduring a little greater temperature span, -100?F to as high as 900+?F, sometimes within just a few minutes of one another. I have sent specimens for 72 hour 100% Salt Spray and Humidity tests on a monthly basis, something I don't think is a requirement in Marine yet.

Unless you are building a spacecraft or something, I would scarf some parallel saw cuts in your plywood or Balsa (usually 2/3rds of the way through), making it bendable, and clamp up multiple layers and be done with it. If you have a compound radii, you will have to cut your plywood or Balsa in strips as well to make the second bend. Make sure to use enough Resin/ PB to fill the scarf cuts too.

Use something like Woodonglass's Jorgenson style Transom clamps and go to town with it.

Also, remember to not completely starve the joint when clamping. You want even clamping pressure fully across the assembly and enough resin where there is even adhesion and some squeeze out to insure there is enough resin. This is a feel and you may have to experiment some. I would recommend using a construction type notched trowel using it to apply adhesive in one direction on one piece and a direction which is perpendicular to it on the adherend piece.

Also, if you go with some sort of composite, unless you put all the pieces together on the adhesive system, you may end up lighter, but you may end up with junk not capable of supporting the HIN tag when your done.

Do some serious exploration of materials, tensile and compressive strength of the combined products, and then do some serious number crunching, then ask someone who has worked with that composite/ resin system and have them check your work. I do it daily either with Fleet Support, Stress, or FAA DERs and not embarrassed by it at all. A second set of eyes will catch a simple mistake you have overlooked many times.

Finally, see if all of it is worth it just to save a couple pounds in weight while maybe gaining a few pounds of strength. I would go with simple tried-n-true which is way out of character for me, but why reinvent the wheel.

I "Over Engineer" everything I do :nerd:, but I tend to keep my explanations brief! :facepalm:
 
Last edited:

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Thank you Mud Puppy for the info, I have more research to perform. I am taking the help, combining this with product to finish a boat that has been modified as shown in the photos within the thread. It simply needs to be strong, safe and easy on the eyes.
My purpose has changed in that the more weight I can save without sacrificing strength, aluminum V8 ( now de-tuned to 285-300 max hp) a Alpha I Gen 2 (saving the Bravo 1) coupled to the correct transom and stringer layup, will allow me the weight advantage I am looking for to add sound & heat deadening, carpeting, LED lighting inboard & auto inspired cockpit layup, engine driven air conditioning and a few more niceties for Rhonda's comfort without exceeding 2000lbs total weight. I do not think it's too tall an order, nor will the boat when finished be bling-d out with unnecessary junk. As I have learned already from WOG and many others the safety issue is of paramount importance, the boat will have comfortable performance but it also needs to be quite, comfortable and of course safe.
I have also become very interested in the design & proper layup of composite and glass construction. Foam forms, molds for parts. While I do not envision ever building a hull, (no time or space) I have already decided on the next project and how the appearance will be modified but first I need to learn "how to do it properly".
Thank you guys for the info, I'm traveling currently on business and for the next three months but will continue to ask questions and request info pointing me in the correct way for success. Thanks again!
 

Mud Puppy

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Messages
276
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Not a problem.

There are people here on this forum, from all walks of life, with all types of experiences, some good, some not so good, and I have found it is always cheaper to learn from someone else's mistakes than making the same ones yourself.

A lot of good people very knowledgeable with boat restoration too. A wealth of talent.

Oh, BTW, my boat with the floor and saturated foam out, minus the engine, weighs what your aiming for. JK, not sure of what it weighs; just know that once the engine and sterndrive was out I couldn't lift the tongue off the ball. Prompted me to get a new jack that worked.

What does your consulting work consist of if I might ask and you don't mind telling?

Rocky
 

Woodonglass

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
25,929
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Hey MudPuppy, I've been doing a LOT of Research lately on End Grain Balsa Core Vacuum Bagging!! Very intriguing. It's totally conformable to almost any shape. Comes in 1/2" sheets of multiple sizes. Lends itself to vacumm bagging extremely well. Yields a very strong laminate that is very water resistant if maintained and cared for properly. The more I investigate the more I'm impressed. The DIY process is a bit involved but appears to be doable. May be a bit Pricey to obtain all the hardware but Lt. Dan seems to have that end already covered so, in this case it may be the way to go. We'll move forward and see how it goes. Maybe you CAN teach and Old Dog New Tricks!!!!:lol:
 

Mud Puppy

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Messages
276
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

You just as the word and I will be more than happy to help where I can. Anyway I can pay back for the knowledge I have gained here from you and the others!

Rocky

P.S. I was down in Tulsa a couple weeks back but was short on time or I would have holler'd.
 

Mud Puppy

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Messages
276
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

~ Lends itself to vacumm bagging extremely well. ~ Lt. Dan seems to have that end already covered so, in this case it may be the way to go. We'll move forward and see how it goes. Maybe you CAN teach and Old Dog New Tricks!!!!:lol:

Just a couple of picks of some of the stuff we do.

A very small bagging operation on a graphite composite: 100_3794.jpg

A littler larger Metal to Metal repair requiring all of the inner skin to be bagged down: DSC01347.jpg

The same bagging showing a pleated tape line in the bagging for the above inlet: DSC01350.jpg

A little larger still with all of the inner composite skin cut out sitting in a cradle: 07D0001, UPPER COWL TOOLS (4).jpg

The completed engine cowl before it heads off to paint sitting in the splash tool we made in house:07D0001, UPPER COWL TOOLS (9).jpg

I do all of the Engineering/ Reverse Engineering for our company.

My dad worked Defense out in Cali, riveting together P-38 Lightning, B-24 Liberator, and finally PBY Catalina Flying Boats. Wish he had lived long enough to see how aircraft are put together today!
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Not a problem.

There are people here on this forum, from all walks of life, with all types of experiences, some good, some not so good, and I have found it is always cheaper to learn from someone else's mistakes than making the same ones yourself.

A lot of good people very knowledgeable with boat restoration too. A wealth of talent.

Oh, BTW, my boat with the floor and saturated foam out, minus the engine, weighs what your aiming for. JK, not sure of what it weighs; just know that once the engine and sterndrive was out I couldn't lift the tongue off the ball. Prompted me to get a new jack that worked.

What does your consulting work consist of if I might ask and you don't mind telling?

Rocky

Hello Rocky,

I work in the energy sector doing Division order analysis, Lease analysis, Purchase & Sales Agreements, due diligence & curative operations. I set up wells for payment to the mineral interest owners, working interest partners, net royalty interest and working interest percentages. I verify attorney written title opinions for accuracy and requirements to satisfy title failure. Basically what I am doing in Tulsa is scrutinizing well files (1,000+) for a company that is liquidating all of it's Oklahoma holdings for other ventures; what we are looking for are what we call "gotcha's" things like preferential rights to purchase ahead of the intended buyer, overriding royalties, non participating royalties, calls on production, where a working interest partner takes the entire production form the well. Many times without this procedure energy companies have only a rough idea of the value of their holdings, we basically bring them up to speed on the actual information contained within the legal well file, for each well. My partner & I work for the major energy companies dealing in the billions of dollars per play, keeps me quite busy and perpetually on the toes...

Have you built a Velocity XL yet?:laugh: I swear if O'Dad was 25 years younger there would be one in the hanger next to the Delta & the canoe.
 

Mud Puppy

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Messages
276
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Have you built a Velocity XL yet?:laugh: I swear if O'Dad was 25 years younger there would be one in the hanger next to the Delta & the canoe.

No not yet. Played around with the idea of a personal helicopter years ago, but never went anywhere with it. I had several hundred head of cattle and I was wanting something I could use to help check numbers. Had it in my head I could swoop down and swoop back up and have a count. As I contemplated on the matter, a close friend at the time, asked how that was going to be quicker than using pickups. My response floored him I think. My intent was to swoop down, swoop back up, counting their legs, and dividing by 4. :lol: It just never panned out. :facepalm:

Did do a small stent back in the late '80s doing electrical mods for a local oil company (small time company) that was trying to pump the muck out of SWMO's sandstone. It was a pretty novel idea at the time. Shallow wells, <2000 ft, that they were injecting steam into to help bleed the crude out.

I worked over the Head Houses on two different fields. One had 60 pumps, and the smaller had only 40. Lot of 3ph motor starters and all the control wiring to all of the tanks and their Mericoids. Took a few weeks on each and they wanted me to go down to Texas and work for them full time, Guess I impressed them on how fast I worked or something. Guess they could have impressed me on how well and how fast they paid. Pretty small time company; main office was the living room of an old farm house, break room was the kitchen, and all my wire, conduit, and raceway was stored in an old barn (behind all of the spare pumps and motors).

It was pretty abstract seeing all the steam rising up out of the snow in the winter from the piping running from one well to the other. As I was finishing that gig, they were dropping electrodes and trying to heat the oil that way. Heard a few years later they had gone belly up using radio freqs and finally microwave to try and bust the oil loose.

Just in the last decade, an Aussie company (I believe), has opened a location up between the two old fields and they have done pretty well without any type of mechanical means other than the pumps. Seems the Reverse Fracking may have worked after all to some degree, just not where the first company was looking. Not a lot of production, but enough to pay for overhead and put a few barrels per day in their pockets.
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

No not yet. Played around with the idea of a personal helicopter years ago, but never went anywhere with it. I had several hundred head of cattle and I was wanting something I could use to help check numbers. Had it in my head I could swoop down and swoop back up and have a count. As I contemplated on the matter, a close friend at the time, asked how that was going to be quicker than using pickups. My response floored him I think. My intent was to swoop down, swoop back up, counting their legs, and dividing by 4. :lol: It just never panned out. :facepalm:

Did do a small stent back in the late '80s doing electrical mods for a local oil company (small time company) that was trying to pump the muck out of SWMO's sandstone. It was a pretty novel idea at the time. Shallow wells, <2000 ft, that they were injecting steam into to help bleed the crude out.

I worked over the Head Houses on two different fields. One had 60 pumps, and the smaller had only 40. Lot of 3ph motor starters and all the control wiring to all of the tanks and their Mericoids. Took a few weeks on each and they wanted me to go down to Texas and work for them full time, Guess I impressed them on how fast I worked or something. Guess they could have impressed me on how well and how fast they paid. Pretty small time company; main office was the living room of an old farm house, break room was the kitchen, and all my wire, conduit, and raceway was stored in an old barn (behind all of the spare pumps and motors).

It was pretty abstract seeing all the steam rising up out of the snow in the winter from the piping running from one well to the other. As I was finishing that gig, they were dropping electrodes and trying to heat the oil that way. Heard a few years later they had gone belly up using radio freqs and finally microwave to try and bust the oil loose.

Just in the last decade, an Aussie company (I believe), has opened a location up between the two old fields and they have done pretty well without any type of mechanical means other than the pumps. Seems the Reverse Fracking may have worked after all to some degree, just not where the first company was looking. Not a lot of production, but enough to pay for overhead and put a few barrels per day in their pockets.

That's the nice thing about stripper wells, not enough production for a major company to keep but plenty steady for the small guy, get enough of them and you are comfortable beyond your wildest dream.
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
I'm back, bet you thought I flushed the project. I bought a Land Rover Discovery 2 tow vehicle and all around dirt toy and am this weekend taking it to Houston so I can work on it there on the weekends I don't travel to Baton Rouge. Rhonda is ecstatic that the "minnow" as she has labeled it is off the rear pad and out of her sight path:) Bring it home finished or don't bring it home....I truly love this woman. At any rate I will post photos as it progresses and hopefully by years end, my resto-mod AristoCraft will be trolling the waterways of Texas and Louisiana with A/C blowing, cool jazz playing and company riding.
 

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
No Title

Got it to Houston, trouble free, One look at the profile and I am re-energized. My buddy Mike Player, a chemist and sailboat guy, is going to help with the glassing, he's experienced with the stuff and procedures for glass manufacturing and repair, now I have something to do when I'm here in Houston on weekends and evenings.
 

Attachments

  • photo202535.jpg
    photo202535.jpg
    71.8 KB · Views: 0
  • photo202536.jpg
    photo202536.jpg
    68.2 KB · Views: 0
  • photo202537.jpg
    photo202537.jpg
    77.3 KB · Views: 0

Lt. Dan

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 31, 2013
Messages
93
So it's been sometime, I have been jammed which is good, but found time last weekend to remove the cap from the hull. At some point in the last 46 years, there had been combinations of sealants applied to the underside between the deck and hull requiring the most basic of tools, a hammer and chisel. My buddy Mike took one side I took the other and after 4 hours we had separated the 2 parts and lifted off the deck.
Tomorrow I plan to remove the balance of the interior liner and begin sanding the crap off for a clean, strong adhesion of the incoming structures. After much thought, advice from some of you guys, research with friends and wood professionals I decided to replace the transom and deck void ( from moving the windshield back") with Hydrotek hardwood then finish as recommended by Woodonglass many months back. Should have plenty of strength and never have to do this again, additionally if I sell the boat there is no argument concerning quality of materials used in the construction.
I have now collected everything necessary to install the LS series V8. In the last year, exhaust manifolds have reduced in price from $3500 to $1295 as more LS aluminum engines are used as retro fits, I'm glad that happened I was not wanting to spend that much on manifolds. The downside of the wait has been a big reduction in the availability of the LS1 & LS2 versions, leaving the more expensive LS3, same motor much more horsepower, I intended to stay with a new Alpha Gen II, might have to go the Bravo 1 so there will not be a torque problem in the outdrive. Later worries, not quite there yet.
Just a quick update, it's still in process, not thrown away...yet ha ha
 
Top