85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

[Sarentack]

Got this boat and motor and knew it would be a project, at $350 I was willing to try and tackle what I thought would end up being simple problems on the motor, it probably is something simple, I havent quite figured it out yet.

Previous owner said he saw some type of spark on the motor I think while he was out on the water, didnt know where it came from, he replaced the power pack but was saying he getting no spark on the motor or spark plugs, looks like he replaced the power packs, spark plugs, and wires in them, he said everything was setting out in the yard for about 3 years though.

One of the problems I saw was the starter was not turning the flywheel like it should, like the starter gear is having trouble turning the flywheel, earlier today I took a voltage meter to the starter where the wire goes to check voltage, then the flywheel start turning full speed from the starter, never did roll over though.

The guy who had this motor and boat prior, not sure exactly what he was doing, I had to reconnect the wiring on the side of the motor opposite of where the power packs are near the starter, but I been looking for a diagram of some sort to see if the power pack wiring is correct, I am just not certain if it is or not.

One of the other problems I have which could be related to a wiring problem is that the battery gets hot on the negative terminal, got to a point earlier it melted the rubber on it. I am not sure whats causing that either, but outside of the power pack wires, I did take a wire brush to all the other wire terminals as I thought this was the reason why the starter had a rough time turning the flywheel. I hooked jumper cables up to my car to the boats battery and seemed to make no difference, it was getting contact though.

Basically this is one of these things where I am not sure where to begin to look.

I just know on other boat forum (hulltruth *fishing and boating forum) bunch of smart alecs said the boat and motor are garbage, they also the same bunch that couldnt tell a good red fish rig anyway, but talking with a mechanic nearby, he told me Forces are good motors but they generally have 3 things that go wrong with them, I dont remember what the 3 were, 1 was Wiring, but he said you could fix one problem and then have the other go wrong.

But this is what I got if anyone can maybe offer suggestions.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

Profile?? Location?? You might be close to someone who can help??
First,do a compression test.
That OK???
Then start with the basics.
Starter not turning? take it apart and check/clean/rebuild.
Check the cables,connections.
Sparking under the hood?? Possible the stator's gone bad? Usually a loose connection?
Tighten all screws and grounds.
The wire connectors can go bad and still look, feel good].
If the comp is good.Replace all the wire connectors.
I use the test procedures from outboard ignition . com
Start with the stator tests first.
That's the part that usually goes bad first.A loose connection can cause sparks/heat and short it out.
I went to that other site. Saw the post.Sad,sad,sad! You ask for help and all you got was c r a p!!


View attachment 188148

 

[Sarentack]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

Well the starter turns, its just that it seems like it has a rough time turning the Flywheel, couple times upon trying to crank it would turn it full speed leaving me to believe its a wiring problem, even after brushing out the leads with a wire brush to make better contact, it didnt help none.

my location is Ocean Springs, MS.

 

[Sarentack]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

one update I got is, the previous owner replaced the stator under the flywheel as well.

As far as I know, the Stator, Plugs, Plug wires, Power Pack, Battery is all brand new (new within the last 3 years anyway)

This is a video of what the Flywheel/Starter is doing:

85 Force Starting having trouble turning flywheel - YouTube


things I did:

- Took jumper cables from my car and took positive end and touched them to the wire/nut goes into the starter.

- Took screw driver and touched both wire ends on the solenoid.


Neither one seemed to help any on getting the starter to turn the flywheel. Although when the rare occasion that the starter turns the flywheel full force, it never did attempt to roll over anyway.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

Do a compression test before you do anything.Remove all plugs.
Comp good? Then check the starter.

 

[foodfisher]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

If memory serves, the starter to block connection is a ground. Pull starter and check for corrosion.

 

[Sarentack]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

I am unable to do a compression test at this moment, I know what it is, I dont have a kit though.

However I did a test of my own, I took all 3 spark plugs out and tried to crank to see how much the flywheel spins, and it spins full speed with the starter.

 

[xjdriver]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

Well, to be able to do a proper compression test that starter needs to turn the motor over at a normal speed unless you want to pull it with a rope while doing the compression test. you will need to fix the starter first. If making a direct connection to starter with a good battery and cables doesnt work, then its most likely the starter. You could try to take it apart and clean it and try it again.

 

[Sarentack]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

This is the starter:



I see nothing to really clean, it is dirty with dust, to know if I am looking at a faulty starter or not, I dont know, I know the screws inside that cap piece with the 4 magnets is quite rusty, not sure if that is the cause of the problems or not.

 

[xjdriver]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

Clean the commutator,(the part the brushes ride on). Make sure the brushes are not stuck, grease the bushings.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

With the ignition off, Try turning the flywheel by hand without the plugs. It should turn smoothly and freely. If it does not, remove the head and look at the condition of the cylinders. It may have gotten light rust upon sitting. Not enough to lock up the engine but enough to cause hard turning. If there is rust inside the cylinders, spray in some penetrating oil or if you have a hone, lightly hone out the rust then clean the cylinders well to get rid of abrasives.

If there is no rust, spray in or coat the cylinders with a 50-1 fuel mix to loosen any old thickened oil. Spray some penetrating oil into the carbs too in order to loosen the crankcase bearings.

When you turn the starter motor that slowly due to a high load, it draws massive amperage, heating the battery terminals and melting the insulation. It may also melt insulation on the windings inside the motor but yours still look OK.

 

[Sarentack]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

Still working on the starter, but I looked at the cylinders by taking the back cover off where the spark plugs go, turned the flywheel, it turned easily by hand, but it kind of acted like it actually had too much compression in it as you could hear the air seep away into the chambers, I guess this is normal given that is needed for turning the propellar. It didnt look rusty or anything and I shot some 2 cycle oil into the cylinders and worked it in.

I put the starter back together, might of done it wrong because now it spins spins and spins while barely even turning the flywheel now. so I have to open that back up and see what the piece in picture #4 above looks like as those magnets were hard to keep seated on the spring when putting it back together.

But I know when you try to turn it by hand with spark plugs in, its hard to turn, then it turns a way, then its hard to turn again. I dont know if this is normal or not.

 

[xjdriver]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

Those 4 "things" are called the brushes. They need to move in their holders freely without binding. It sounds like the gear on the starter is not throwing out, try and lube the mechanism that it slides on, not sure what style your starter has. If its spinning without engaging the flywheel you probly put it together right. Are you SHURE its getting enough juice? Becouse if it spins to slow it wont throw the gear out. Mabey another vid

 

[Sarentack]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

Well its getting enough juice I believe, the positive wire to Solenoid reads around 12.6V and the side of the solenoid that goes to the starter will read about 6v, this is before cranking, I have tried screwdriver to the solenoid to ensure a full 12v charge from battery is reaching the starter, I have even touched the positive side of the jumper cable I was using to the starter and it would do the same thing as seen in the video. Most times when starting I often use jumper cables from my cars battery while car is running to the boat battery.

So I believe its getting enough juice.

The mechanism you talking about, is this the round case itself? I lubed that with some oil and cleaned it out. Honestly nothing really to clean on the starter but a little dust or carbon. But I oiled up some of the pieces on it.

The starter I found on ebay is this:

New Starter Force Outboard 70 75 80 85 90 120 125 150 HP 1983 1999 | eBay


The model of the Motor is a: 856X8A

 

[xjdriver]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

Jumper cables suck, try not to use them when diagnosing any starter/ electrical problems. If your battery is bad, then buy a new one, youll need it once you get it running anyway, see if you could borrow a battery from someone before you buy a new starter.you say your getting 6 volts on the starter side of the coil, you shouldnt be getting any when your not cranking. Do this- disconnect your starter wire and hook your jumper cables to your car battery, connect the negative clamp to a clean spot on the outboards engine block, then touch the positive clamp to the terminal on the starter, post results.

 

[Sarentack]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

Jumper cables suck, try not to use them when diagnosing any starter/ electrical problems. If your battery is bad, then buy a new one, youll need it once you get it running anyway, see if you could borrow a battery from someone before you buy a new starter.you say your getting 6 volts on the starter side of the coil, you shouldnt be getting any when your not cranking. Do this- disconnect your starter wire and hook your jumper cables to your car battery, connect the negative clamp to a clean spot on the outboards engine block, then touch the positive clamp to the terminal on the starter, post results.

Did that, causes alot of sparking but it didnt seem to help any, was still having problems turning the flywheel.

I just know that the cables get real hot though when its on that battery and I try to crank it with the starter doing that. I may go back into the cylinders and lube them better and see what it does.

It really sounds like the engine is not exhausting out enough of the compression it gets causing it to do that. But I dont know.

 

[xjdriver]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

Sounds like starter. Its a 2 stroke, so every time the piston moves up in the cylinder there is compression. There really cant be to much compression, but there could be something binding, with the spark plugs out you should be able to sling the flywheel around pretty easy.

 

[Sarentack]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

I can turn it and see the cylinders in it moving back and forth, I can turn it with one hand, its all a question of how easily should it turn with plugs out?

 

[xjdriver]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

Its just something you get the feel for after working on alot of engines i cant really explain it, but one hand sounds good. Sounds like you took the cylinder head off, i would recommend a new head gasket and youll need to tourque the head bolts down in the correct sequence and to the proper tourque.

 

[Sarentack]

Re: 85HP Force (Possibly 1989 model) Believe I got a wiring a problem.

Well what I took off was the cover piece where the spark plugs go.

With that said, I assume the next phase of action would be to replace the Starter?

I know the starter at least by appearance, looks good and clean, but that could mean nothing.

But now suppose I just bypass the starter and do the old fashion pull rope crank on the flywheel? I know for a fact at one point when the starter did decide to turn the flywheel at full speed, it didnt even attempt to crank, so this might be the next course of action to take until I can get a starter. I am just not sure if any of the wiring on the power packs are right.