86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

[Solittle]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

Mac - I'm going to throw this out for what it is worth. My take is this has something to do with the primer. You said "When I flipped the red switch on the primer it fired ran for a bit and stalled." You should not have to flip the primer. It should be activated when you push in the ignition switch. Is it? You may need to get someone to assist you and monitor what the motor is doing as you try to start it.<br /><br />Please keep posting here as this is a real puzzler and we are all learning from what you are going through.

 

[v12mac]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

All, thanks for all the interest and input. I am sure the entire form is getting sick of this motor and me by now!<br /><br />DPH, I blocked the primer off by capping the fuel line and plugging the input to the primer. This just made it harder to start. Had to shoot the premix in.<br /><br />Onespeed, Rebuild kit had new seats and needle valves. When you say wet are you talking fuel or water?<br /><br />Clanton, the boat is in Naples. Hopefully hurricane Ivan won’t be.<br /><br />SoLittle, based on the way this thing is acting it fits all the signs of a bad primer but taking it out of the equation didn’t help. <br /><br />I don’t want to be a blind part swapper but I got this feeling about the coil packs today. I am reading up on how to properly test them tonight. It is much cheaper when guessing only costs you 2 coils vs 6<br /><br />The air leak may be it too, where can I find this “Monkey Snot” please don’t say from a sick monkey.<br /><br />Mac

 

[seahorse5]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

You mentioned "green" fuel. IF you use a green colored oil, then you may have a leaking oil outlet check valve inside your "VRO" pump. The oil tank is vented for vacuum only and will build up pressure when the temperature rises. The oil check valve is built to withstand the pressure buildup, but debris or wear can make them pass oil into the fuel side of the pump. The rich oil mix builds up in the float bowls and the motor will not run. Pessing in on the choke or spraying pre-mix in the carb will make the motor fire up, but cannot stay running with the oil rich mix in the carbs.<br /><br />2 things to do. One, drain each carb by removing the front screw covering the high speed jet, then re-install screw making sure the oring is in good shape.<br /><br />Second, squeeze the fuel primer ball until it is hard, hook up the water, and see if the motor starts normally.<br /><br /><br />If it starts OK now, you may need a new pump assembly. You can also use a sharpened paper clip and pierce the vent membrane in the center of the oil cap to vent (thru the underside of the cap) the tank for both vacuum and pressure.<br /><br />If this is the fix, please donate the steaks to a veteran's home, nursing home, or victims of the 2 hurricanes in your area, thanks.

 

[seahorse5]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

You mentioned "green" fuel. IF you use a green colored oil, then you may have a leaking oil outlet check valve inside your "VRO" pump. The oil tank is vented for vacuum only and will build up pressure when the temperature rises. The oil check valve is built to withstand the pressure buildup, but debris or wear can make them pass oil into the fuel side of the pump. The rich oil mix builds up in the float bowls and the motor will not run. Pessing in on the choke or spraying pre-mix in the carb will make the motor fire up, but cannot stay running with the oil rich mix in the carbs.<br /><br />2 things to do. One, drain each carb by removing the front screw covering the high speed jet, then re-install screw making sure the oring is in good shape.<br /><br />Second, squeeze the fuel primer ball until it is hard, hook up the water, and see if the motor starts normally.<br /><br /><br />If it starts OK now, you may need a new pump assembly. You can also use a sharpened paper clip and pierce the vent membrane in the center of the oil cap to vent (thru the underside of the cap) the tank for both vacuum and pressure.<br /><br />If this is the fix, please donate the steaks to a veteran's home, nursing home, or victims of the 2 hurricanes in your area, thanks.

 

[v12mac]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

Seahorse, When I replaced the Fuel pump I went with the non-VRO replacement. The green fuel in the under hood fuel filter and all the cracks had me too worried.<br /><br />Lots of fuel in the bowls, they fill right up.<br /><br />These hurricanes are ridiculous; too many good folks have lost everything.<br /><br />Mac

 

[BF]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

hiya,<br /><br />Interesting thread... but sounds like a bummer! I had a thought when you reviewed when this problem started (after manual tilting for the first time in years). Have you checked the wiring where it exits the engine to go the the control box? It could be that the wiring is brittle (time + fuel spritzed on it once in while), and that when you tilted it most of the conductor for an ignition wire (running to the control box) cracked. It could be that there is enough connection to allow for some spark, but as soon as it fires up the engine vibration jiggles the poor connection and acts like a kill switch.<br /><br />Admittedly, this is pretty much wild guess-work on my part, but I had a similar problem with a snowmobile once. Wire to ignition switch "looked" fine, but was broken inside. Engine would start, but quickly run rough/die. I could restart it, but again it would croak. I found the problem by moving/flexing wires when it was chuggin' and barely running... touching the offending wire immediately made it jump back to life. Nothing that an hour of so of splicing didn't fix. I removed all the other stiff/cruddy wiring at the same time.<br /><br />Anyway, like I said... just a thought! Good luck (and also with Ivan!!).<br /><br />Brent

 

[Reel Appeal]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

v12,<br />Just for laughs,remove all the plugs(check gap while there out) and dry them with Ether(evaporative drying).Shake out each one(of Ether)and reinstall.Prime the bulb.DO NOT CHOKE the motor and try restarting.DO NOT spray Ether into the cylinders or carb throats.<br />Also try this.Try starting the motor (count to 6) then stop.Go back to the motor and remove any sparkplug.Take note if the plug is dry or wet looking.Post back.

 

[clanton]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

I go to the Cleveland Clinic in Naples for my checkups. Sometimes other things to do in Naples. If you are close to the Clinic, the next time Im there, I will do a few checks for you.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

Do the basic trouble shooting procedure.<br /><br />Remove one fuel primer line from the intake manifold. Pump the fuel primer bulb... fuel should NOT flow out that line. Now turn the ignition key to the RUN position (engine NOT running) and press the key in to actuate the fuel primer solenoid. Fuel should now flow out of that line when the fuel primer bulb is compressed. If you encounter a different scenario in this test, find out why. If all is as it should be, read on.<br /><br />You've checked the compression which is satisfactory, so check the spark as follows.<br /><br />Rig up some kind of spark tester whereas you can set a 7/16" Gap for the spark to jump. Don't try to check the spark with the spark plugs installed or by having the spark jump the plug gap. <br /><br />With the spark plugs removed (out!), the spark should jump that 7/16" Gap gap with a strong wide blue lightning like flame.... a real SNAP! Does it? <br /><br />If not, disconnect the large main RED electrical connector at the engine, then crank the engine by using a small jumper from the battery terminal of the starter solenoid to the small 3/8" nut terminal of the solenoid to engage it (not the 3/8" ground nut). If the spark now improves to what it should be, the weak spark problem is most likely a failing ignition switch (shorting), in which case, replace it.<br /><br />If the spark is still weak, look under the flywheel at the large black coils on the rear portion of the stator. If they are melting and oozing a sticky substance down on the block and timer base, replace the stator assembly. Those large black soils are the beginning of the ignition system, delivering approximately 300 AC volts to the powerpacks. When they start to melt down, that AC voltage drops and the ignition becomes erratic, and eventually fails all together.<br /><br />I assume you're using Champion QL77JC4 spark plugs with the gap set at .040. If not, do so.<br /><br />Now, if you've cleaned and assembled those carburetors properly, and the primer solenoid operates as it should, and you have compression, fuel, and spark, and the flywheel key hasn't sheared (note that the flywheel nut must be torqued to exactly 145 foot pounds or that key will shear).... That engine has to run.

 

[v12mac]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

Joe,<br />Thank you for jumping in, I think you are on to something here. As I mentioned this boat sat exposed to the elements for a long time. Now that I think about it the Key Switch is mounted next to the throttle on the console.. Facing up instead of back toward the operator. My brother mentioned that some times this could cause problems with the switch. IE rain constantly running in to the switch. I had no idea that a failing ignition switch could cause a week spark. I’ll run through these checks and post back.<br /><br />Mac

 

[v12mac]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

I am running the the QL77JC4 at .30 sould I bump them to .40?<br /><br />I have verified that the primer is functioning correctly by pulling a hose (T-connector) and pumping the bulb. No fuel moving, Press the key in fuel squirts. <br /><br />Checked the spark by pulling a plug and grounding it to the block, spark present but not a hot blue spark. With the plug in I couldn’t get the spark to jump the length of the spark plug boot. I pulled the red connector apart and spark did not improve.<br /><br />Upon close inspection I not sure if I saw sticky goo or just normal motor goo under the flywheel. I am going to look through my manual for a volt meter test for this does anyone know it off hand?<br /><br />Am I on the right track?<br /><br />Mac

 

[MMTech1]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

When you had the Carbs off did you inspect the reeds. <br /><br />Also that blocks intake manifold has many bolts holding it in place and should be tight. Of those bolts there are three to six that should not only be tight but sealed, for the hole they thread into goes right into the reed cavity. If not sealed they will suck air, engine will start then die. <br /><br />You mentioned that you removed the VRO and went to a different fuel pump. What type? If you went with factory you would then have two fuel pumps, one feeding the other, they normally have different part numbers. <br /><br />The carb kit number you used is correct. <br /><br />As Joe above said check the flywheel key. A spun hub could have shired the key upon overrev of engine, and/or sucked a reed. <br /><br />You can get an adjustable spark checker at your local tool store or autoparts for under $20. The spark should jump 7/16" to 1/2".<br /><br />If you can have you brother start the motor while you check timing in that 10 to 20 seconds. What is the timing at?

 

[v12mac]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

I couldn’t get a good view of the reeds when I had the carbs off and I didn’t mess with the bolts other than the ones holding the carbs onto the throttle body.<br /><br />The VRO swap, the OMC dealer had a kit available that looks just like the original but without the VRO section. <br /><br />When the hub spun I was only tacking 3800 or so and probably didn’t ease up over 4500 before I pulled off the gas. <br /><br />Wife made me sell my timing light when we moved so I can’t confirm.<br /><br />Mac

 

[v12mac]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

Solved!<br /><br />Turns out it was the Key switch. I went back through Joe’s instructions and actually followed them! The switch was failing and allowing a partial ground on the M wire (Magneto). It would allow the engine some spark but not enough to run.<br /><br />Thanks again Joe. I have e-mailed you please respond with your address and I’ll make good on my promise.<br /><br />What happened:<br /><br />At the beach the fateful day, I believe a beer was spilled on the console. This ran down in to the ignition and started goofing things up. When I began trouble shooting the already rotten and fragile fuel lines began to crack and fall apart. So when I shot some pre-mix in the carbs it would fire and die. I went through the fuel system and then got the engine so it would now fire rev and then die. Joe’s spark test (When followed correctly) showed me that I did have a weak spark. Pulling apart the big red connector was the trick to isolating the problem. My manual said to hook up jumper wires and use my voltage meter but this was much easier. One side note: If the engine fires up during this test and is running with the plug disconnected and you want to shut it off, flip the red primer lever and flood it out. No shock and no run lean condition. <br /><br />Net of this is I have a PHD in the fuel system on this engine, New lines tank to carbs, New fuel pump and a new set of coils and plugs, along with the new key switch. Calling a mechanic would have been cheaper but where is the fun in that!

 

[Pst76]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

Glad to see all is well...Should be good for a few seasons now.

 

[Scuda11]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

V12Mac, congrats, good job.<br /><br />When can you come up to the Cape and help me work on my 200hp?? lol<br /><br />Scott

 

[angus63]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

Good to hear a happy ending. Now you can tell the wife about that motorcycle you had your eye on!!!

 

[mwoodard]

Re: 86 Johnson 225 Troubble shooting, Fires revs dies FIXED!!!

UH OH!, This sounds like the EXACT same problem I am having on my 1979 Johnson 115. It started by blowing the in-line fuse. I replaced the ignition switch thinking it could be the issue (old, brittle, cracked etc.) Since replacing my engine will attmept to start but die. I prime it with a little ether and it cranks right up then dies. I will go back though this thread and check the fix. Wish me luck as I have spent too much time on this baby so far...my wife too is ready to send me packing.

I guess when installing the new switch (aftermarket) I may have mixed up the grounds (M wires). Is this a likely possibility that would cause the same issues?