87 VRO bypass, running issues.

[Silvertip]

You "fiddled" with the link&sync process. On that motor the process is several pages long and you don't start in the middle of the process. You really need the service manual to get that right. And since you worked on the carbs, there is a good chance you now have the idle mixture set wrong. Again, the manual will help you but everything else needs to be adjusted properly for the engine to idle smoothly, transition well, and run wide open. And just so you know, if there is still an air leak anywhere in the system, you risk ruining the engine due to lean operation.

 

[jakedaawg]

1st of all, for any further running until VRO is verified good, run pre-mix 50:1 in the tank. Double oil will not hurt.

Because you emptied the oil tank and then refilled and ran on straight gas and experienced difficulties another quick comp test is in order. Its probably fine but so easy to check. Just not worth wasting time on an engine with a bad hole.

Take a fuel sample into clear container. Just another simple step, so easy why not do it.

From what I have read here it sounds like your fuel and oil lines have started to deteriorate. This may not be noticeable on the outside. I suggest you replace them all. Re-clean the carbs. Purge/flush oil line from oil tank to VRO. Verify VRO is self priming as per OMC manual. And then go zoom zoom and enjoy a day on the water.

Just my 2 cents.

Edit: Oops, missed the whole fiddling with the liinkage. Do as silvertip suggested, get a manual.

 

[urbanredneck]

1st of all, for any further running until VRO is verified good, run pre-mix 50:1 in the tank. Double oil will not hurt.

Because you emptied the oil tank and then refilled and ran on straight gas and experienced difficulties another quick comp test is in order. Its probably fine but so easy to check. Just not worth wasting time on an engine with a bad hole.

Take a fuel sample into clear container. Just another simple step, so easy why not do it.

From what I have read here it sounds like your fuel and oil lines have started to deteriorate. This may not be noticeable on the outside. I suggest you replace them all. Re-clean the carbs. Purge/flush oil line from oil tank to VRO. Verify VRO is self priming as per OMC manual. And then go zoom zoom and enjoy a day on the water.

Just my 2 cents.

Edit: Oops, missed the whole fiddling with the liinkage. Do as silvertip suggested, get a manual.

I did read some material on ensuring proper VRO functionality. When i cleaned out the oil reservoir and refilled, i did purge the line, removed all air and old oil.
I actually have a clear piece of fitting on the exit side of the VRO pump, i have oil going into the motor.
And as above stated, only problems i had initially was getting the motor running. Once I had er warmed up, i had zero problems until probably 5 hours later on the water.

Dont recall which happened first, either the motor dying 1 time at WOT, or the business with the motor not wanting to idle without Fast-Idle lever engaged. But again, this all was random, didn't experience those problems until later in the day.

And im not sure where we're getting the fiddling with the sync+link stuff. Unless it can be messed with without noticing, I didnt touch anything besides the carburetors. I ensured the bottom roller was in the same spot , not touching the cam follower rod (i think its called? ) while at idle.

I ironed all that out last weekend long before she hit the water and all was fine .

And can you elaborate on the fuel sample statement, as in the objective or what im looking for?

Thanks guys.

 

[jakedaawg]

And can you elaborate on the fuel sample statement, as in the objective or what im looking for?

Thanks guys.

Fuel sample is so easy, why not do it. You are looking to verify clean clear fuel, ruling out debris and phase seperation.

Carbs have three circuits. Idle, off-idle, and high speed. Sounds like yours has a plugged Idle circuit or poorly set idle mixture. Hence the re-cleaning of carbs, the fuel sample, and replacing fuel lines. I would guess that the lines are starting to deteriorate internally leading to the idle circuit getting plugged again. A manual allows you to properly set the mixture if it is adjustable on your model of carbs (I cant remember at the moment but I believe you have an idle air bleed on those carbs that is set by an adjustable needle.)

 

[urbanredneck]

Fuel sample is so easy, why not do it. You are looking to verify clean clear fuel, ruling out debris and phase seperation.

Carbs have three circuits. Idle, off-idle, and high speed. Sounds like yours has a plugged Idle circuit or poorly set idle mixture. Hence the re-cleaning of carbs, the fuel sample, and replacing fuel lines. I would guess that the lines are starting to deteriorate internally leading to the idle circuit getting plugged again. A manual allows you to properly set the mixture if it is adjustable on your model of carbs (I cant remember at the moment but I believe you have an idle air bleed on those carbs that is set by an adjustable needle.)

Ok, starting to gather what your saying now. So which source line am i gathering said fuel sample from? From each line coming off the pump going to carbs? Or as easy as just the main fuel line at the motor?

Also if i were to replace the fuel lines, are we talking the main line with primer bulb, plus all the small lines coming off the VRO/ fuel pump?

And yes i will be looking into getting a manual. I have no clue about any idle settings or any adjustments within the carbs themselves.

 

[jakedaawg]

The line at the tank will show you whats in the tank (easiest method). If you wanted to take a sample from one of the lines just before a carb that would be great also. It might show some little black chunks if you flushed enough through and maybe jiggled the little fuel hoses a bit. This would indicate an interior deteriorating fuel line. either way it doesn't really matter as on a motor this age you should do as mentioned above, replace fuel lines, reclean carbs, check mixture and link & sync, verify VRO, and go boating.

 

[urbanredneck]

The line at the tank will show you whats in the tank (easiest method). If you wanted to take a sample from one of the lines just before a carb that would be great also. It might show some little black chunks if you flushed enough through and maybe jiggled the little fuel hoses a bit. This would indicate an interior deteriorating fuel line. either way it doesn't really matter as on a motor this age you should do as mentioned above, replace fuel lines, reclean carbs, check mixture and link & sync, verify VRO, and go boating.

Well yes, just replacing all the lines would be great. However, i was told i shouldn't run an Atwood kit or anything else, that i should positively run an OEM OMC Evinrude line/bulb setup.
I only have 1 dealer for that stuff here, so the market is cornered, and they demand every penny. Over $100 just for the tank line/bulb connections, and also need all the little pieces coming off the pump, expensive little project.

But if thats what needs to be done, ill just have to wait until I can afford to do it.

One thing id love to know before the weekend is how to adjust the "idle mixture " . Have read it involves screwing in one of the jets a certain way. I definitely didn't do that, i just put em in snug and put it all back together.

If anyone has the info that pertains to my motor (E40ELCUD) from a manual or brain storage, that'd be sweet.

Thanks again guys.

 

[fhhuber]

The hard starting.... Are you pumping the priming bulb up till its HARD?

Hard to restart... Are you AGAIN using the priming bulb?

It can take a LONG time for the engine to draw fuel if the line empties backward into the tank and you don't use the priming bulb.

BTW... it taking less than an hour for the fuel line to empty enough to need to use the priming bulb is a sign of air leaking into the fuel system from an abnormal source. That source could be your connections that you didn't clamp tightly... or the hoses themselves having become porous from age... or the pump leaking air at the gaskets (or cracks in the plastic).... or all of the possible sources at once.

 

[urbanredneck]

The hard starting.... Are you pumping the priming bulb up till its HARD?

Hard to restart... Are you AGAIN using the priming bulb?

It can take a LONG time for the engine to draw fuel if the line empties backward into the tank and you don't use the priming bulb.

BTW... it taking less than an hour for the fuel line to empty enough to need to use the priming bulb is a sign of air leaking into the fuel system from an abnormal source. That source could be your connections that you didn't clamp tightly... or the hoses themselves having become porous from age... or the pump leaking air at the gaskets (or cracks in the plastic).... or all of the possible sources at once.

Yes, i was doing both. Pushing in the key to prime, and squeezing the bulb until i couldn't anymore from it stiffening up.
However, i did notice that, in between tries (cranking to start) , i had to go through that process each time. Every time id fire it and not start, the bulb would re soften and I'd have to squeeze it until it firmed up again.
Is that abnormal?

To add to it while were on the subject of fuel squeeze bulb, should it remain firm while the motor is running, or should it be soft? At one point during the last trip, i was cruising and felt the bulb while running. Definitely wasn't hard.
Again. Unsure what condition is normal.

Thank you sir for addressing that part of my concerns.

 

[fhhuber]

You have a leak or something letting the fuel siphon back to the tank.
Might be the check valves in the pump not sealing up.
Might be pulling some air through the poorly clamped hoses
Might need new hoses

It sounds like the fuel is draining back to the tank so fast that you can't even get from the bulb to the switch before its draining the hose.

The bulb should go soft, maybe even collapse a LITTLE bit while running high speed. But fit should take maybe 1 pump to make the bulb firm just after engine shut down.

BTW.. the priming bulb has check valves that should be making it take longer to drain back also... so the bulb may be bad. Or if its laying on its side with the out pointed slightly down, that can defeat the check valves.

And Attwood makes a perfectly acceptable kit for you.

Or order the OEM from iboats.com.

Don't mess with the idle till you solve (what looks like) the fuel lines/pump issue. If it idles right with a fuel lines/pump issue you may have adjusted it way off....
The idle WAS right for when the engine ran right.

 

[flyingscott]

Use oetiker clamps for the hoses on the vro and any fuel lines.

 

[jakedaawg]

When I suggested replacing fuel lines I was referring to lines from connector to pump to carbs. Not sure where you are but you are correct in using oem main supply line. The after markets work but in my experience not for long.

 

[urbanredneck]

You have a leak or something letting the fuel siphon back to the tank.
Might be the check valves in the pump not sealing up.
Might be pulling some air through the poorly clamped hoses
Might need new hoses

It sounds like the fuel is draining back to the tank so fast that you can't even get from the bulb to the switch before its draining the hose.

The bulb should go soft, maybe even collapse a LITTLE bit while running high speed. But fit should take maybe 1 pump to make the bulb firm just after engine shut down.

BTW.. the priming bulb has check valves that should be making it take longer to drain back also... so the bulb may be bad. Or if its laying on its side with the out pointed slightly down, that can defeat the check valves.

And Attwood makes a perfectly acceptable kit for you.

Or order the OEM from iboats.com.

Don't mess with the idle till you solve (what looks like) the fuel lines/pump issue. If it idles right with a fuel lines/pump issue you may have adjusted it way off....
The idle WAS right for when the engine ran right.

Id be open to trying an aftermarket kit as its much cheaper and would be easier during the troubleshooting phase.
What made me hesitant is the style of fittings for the tank/ motor ends. They appear to be a 90 degree elbow fitting or something similar. Both ends of my main fuel line have the square fitting with the 2 male pins and the 1 female opening, and the little lock lever.

Unsure if that style is more superior and should stick with it (meaning spending 5x more for the OMC line ), or if the Attwood kit and its style of fittings is ok.

As far as the idle being off, who knows when the last time it was all 100%. I bought it at the end of winter. And actually, this last trip, its ran better than it has since i've owned it.

To me what is odd, and may just be the nature of a 2-stroke outboard, is the random occurrence of the issues.

Example. At launch. She took forever to start, but once it did, i had no problems with the idle. Hours and miles later on the water. It was the opposite. Would start up immediately, but then had a weird idle quirk with the fast-idle lever in the run position. THIS is where i really question whats wrong, since its so inconsistent.

Thanks

 

[thdrduck]

I have a 40 hp VRO rude. Got it last year and never had a VRO before on an outboard. Had one on a motorcycle and it failed, blew the motor. My first tank of fuel on my rude got mixed 50:1 and I used a sharpie to mark the oil tank. Ran the fuel nearly out and my oil in the tank never dropped. Wrote that system off, don't trust oil injection systems. My 40 starts great cold by pushing the key to prime the carbs, however after it warms up if I push the key to prime it she will crank and crank (thought I was screwed once on the river when she wouldn't start). Quit pushing in the key to restart after it has run a bit and she pops right off.

 

[urbanredneck]

I have a 40 hp VRO rude. Got it last year and never had a VRO before on an outboard. Had one on a motorcycle and it failed, blew the motor. My first tank of fuel on my rude got mixed 50:1 and I used a sharpie to mark the oil tank. Ran the fuel nearly out and my oil in the tank never dropped. Wrote that system off, don't trust oil injection systems. My 40 starts great cold by pushing the key to prime the carbs, however after it warms up if I push the key to prime it she will crank and crank (thought I was screwed once on the river when she wouldn't start). Quit pushing in the key to restart after it has run a bit and she pops right off.

Thanks for the input sir. I too am still on the fence with canning the VRO. Its nice not having to worry about premixing, and having 1 big jug of 2 stroke oil lasting all season.
But im not sure those things beat peace of mind. If i dont remove it soon, ill run the motor until the pump fails and buy a fuel-only pump.

What year is your 40?

 

[oldboat1]

Think I would consider just plugging the oil line and unpluging the VRO harness, then running premixed 50:1. I don't think you have to seriously disassemble anything to convert to manual mixing. Your call, but suggesting conversion isn't difficult or permanent -- think you could test it out temporarily and see if the motor runs better for you.

If using plastic ties for clamping, use a bladed screwdriver and a needle nosed pliers to cinch them down tight.

Test the fuel for water as indicated, siphoning a sample from the tank bottom. And in any case I would add some dry gas to the fuel tank. I'm not a fan of seafoam except for serious engine decarb treatment (JMO).

If you have been doing the carb cleaning/rebuilding yourself -- need to be sure the area under the domed plug on top is clean -- remove the plug and clean the small openings with fine wire and carb spray. With the plug out, spray through the jet on the front and be sure the spray is coming out into the area under the plug. For proper cleaning, you really need to disassemble and soak metal carb parts, then blow everything out. It sounds like you may still have some blockage in the idle passages up at the top -- doesn't take much to create problems on either the low speed or high speed side.

BTW -- Stalling and drifting toward dams, falls, shipping lanes -- all the stuff that gets you thinking about other hobbies. I'm big on kicker motors.

 

[urbanredneck]

Think I would consider just plugging the oil line and unpluging the VRO harness, then running premixed 50:1. I don't think you have to seriously disassemble anything to convert to manual mixing. Your call, but suggesting conversion isn't difficult or permanent -- think you could test it out temporarily and see if the motor runs better for you.

If using plastic ties for clamping, use a bladed screwdriver and a needle nosed pliers to cinch them down tight.

Test the fuel for water as indicated, siphoning a sample from the tank bottom. And in any case I would add some dry gas to the fuel tank. I'm not a fan of seafoam except for serious engine decarb treatment (JMO).

If you have been doing the carb cleaning/rebuilding yourself -- need to be sure the area under the domed plug on top is clean -- remove the plug and clean the small openings with fine wire and carb spray. With the plug out, spray through the jet on the front and be sure the spray is coming out into the area under the plug. For proper cleaning, you really need to disassemble and soak metal carb parts, then blow everything out. It sounds like you may still have some blockage in the idle passages up at the top -- doesn't take much to create problems on either the low speed or high speed side.

BTW -- Stalling and drifting toward dams, falls, shipping lanes -- all the stuff that gets you thinking about other hobbies. I'm big on kicker motors.

Thanks for the reply.

I actually did do all that when I rebuilt the carbs. I bought the big jug of Berrymans Chem-Tool Carb Bath and soaked everything. A co worker actually had a carb jet cleaning kit. Essentially just a pack of very small cleaning tools and poking devices.
Everyone familiar with carbs here said they looked brand new before I even cleaned them, but i did it anyway. They were essentially brand new squeaky clean when I was done with them.

And as far as the zip ties go, i did use that method. Trouble was, all the lines inside the motor area are in such a tight space, i couldn't get a proper grip/angle on them.

I think i may just use standard automotive hose clamps and just be careful not to rupture the hose.

And even if I do can the VRO, ill still have to secure all the little oil lines coming off the pump, ad they're still prone to air suction. So i dont know.