88' Force 85hp Power trim unit seems weak going up after replacing.

[jerryjerry05]

The Chinese ones are just cheaply made and they use inferior parts.
​They mass produce and just hope that the crappy thing lasts long enough to outlast the warranty.

​The original(pics???) if rebuilt right will last another 25-30 years.

​The motor: any water intrusion will eventually kill it. Salt water especially.

The pump: if there is water intrusion it's not real bad unless all the oils gone.
​The hyd.pump itself, there isn't really anything you can do to the pump part itself.
​The seals in the lower part is what usually goes bad.
Depending on the age it can be difficult to take apart and repair.

​Replacing the seal: disassembly can be tricky.
​The parts can fly if your not careful.

​You said earlier that the old one was working right??
You sure you want to open it up?

 

[DunbarLtd]

Well when i say the "old one" i meant the MOTOR. I am getting confuses on what you guys call pump. I will assume now you mean the valve body is the pump much like an oil pump in a car. Then theres the motor and reservoir.

so when i say the old one i meant the electric motor. But when i went to look at the boat the seller showed me that the reservoir was leaking. He didnt seem to know much about it or so he said but anyways. I got home and removed the pump from the housing and the large coke can oring was shredded. I tried to find one but of course its near impossible. I ended up finding an electic motor that came with one and thought hey why not. The electric motor is 30 years old its prob time for new one.

So after removing old pump it was caked with sludge. Mind you, when i went to look at the boat it went up and down. It just leaked fluid.

Well after inspecting the pump and seeing the sludge i figured why not buy a new one. Well this was before i did research on the subject and read the multiple threads about it. So i order it and its a chinese of course.

And do i want to take it apart? Well too late i already did and im glad i did because there was a round port that had rust on it and a check ball and spring was rusted. Im soaking them in vinegar until i can remove the rust and see if they are pitted. Ive ordered a tecumseh seal and at this point am going to try and salvage the old pump. If i can not then i suppose i will have no choice but to buy new.

The one thing that i am stumped on and im sure why people dont want to take them apart is stuff goes flying. But im not worried about putting it together again as long as i know where all the springs and check balls go. Ive read one of the check balls is difficult to put on the spring and you have to put in while valve is upside down. Thats no worry.

when i opened it nothing went flying but i noticed there were little copper colored washers or spacers. Im assuming these are the shims RRitt has talked about and they control pressure. I didnt count them but i think there were 5 maybe 6. I didnt lose any so thats good. All the parts are sitting in vinegar right now. Since ill be going through and redoing all the orings im sure the vinegar shouldnt hurt.

So other than the springs and check balls, of which i have a diagram so i know where they go....i didnt get a chance to see where those shims sit. Im assuming they go down in a hole and then a spring goes over them. Ill have to get all the rust off and then take pics of all the parts. Thank you again for your advice. Its is greatly appreciated.

JAmes

 

[jerryjerry05]

The reassembly of the pump.
If your successful I'd be reallllly surprised.
​The part that goes bad is in the bottom of the pump and when you take that part apart is when the things can go flying.
On the top of the forum is 3 posts that cover some repairs and FAC's
One has the pics of the lower part of the pump or relief valve.
​They are spring loaded and when taken apart the pieces can fly.
​I cover them with a towel when taking them apart.

​The pump in poor condition will work.

Let us know if you are successful with the reassembly.

​In 30 years I've never seen a parts breakdown on the pump.
​And never saw one go bad.
​The washer and o-rings are what's usually replaced.

 

[DunbarLtd]

Ok thanks Jerry for the heads up. I contacted the company who i bought the pump from and theyll send me out a new one but im not getting my hopes up.

The reason I split the valve in half was because it had a lot of sludge buildup when i removed it from the reservoir and i figured since water had gotten into the system because the large sealing oring was bad that maybe the insides of the pump were all gummed up too.

So when i split it my suspicions were somewhat correct as i found a spring and a check ball had rusted up. Im soakin them now to see if they got pitted at all. However, I found a diagram and read on other forums where all the spring and check balls and shims go so its a matter of carefully lining all those parts up and squishing the two halves together and paying attention not to get it misaligned and gouge the soft aluminum. Im pretty good with stuff that takes this amount of detail so if i take my time i should be able to get it back together.

Ill obviously then have to fight my way through replacing the oring on the shuttle and poppet valves. Which ive seen the threads about this and its looks fairly straightforward. But the difficult part will be separating the cap off the outside valves. I suppose a heavy rag and a pair of pliers will get the job done. Ill make sure i try not to open the cap like my kid does a bag of chips and send everything flying. Other than the little bit of rust on the spring and check ball it looks clean inside there.

If I had to smooth out some roughness on the mating surface should i just go with steel wool? Or something else? Thanks again!

 

[jerryjerry05]

First off pliers will score and ruin the works.
The post shows a door panel tool.Don't get a cheap one.
I looked at the ones from HF and they are made from thin metal and won't work as well.
​I reworked one to allow the valve to set further back, making it easier to separate.
​I found using a bit of heat helps make the separation process easier.
Also the threads are easily buggered.
​I use 3 different size washers to save the threads.

​If your causing roughness? the tools/ procedures need to be changed.
The tolerances in the pump and valves are pretty tight and any gouges or grooves might cause leaking??
Pics of the roughness? Or explain a bit better what roughness?
​Surface rust or corrosion? a steel wool pad or scotchbrite?

 

[DunbarLtd]

Just a little surface rust and some corrosion on the mating surface of the two halves but its minimal. I soaked the two halves in vinegar until i could use a soft scotch brite and softly rub off the corrosion with mineral spirits. The gears were immaculate. As the other check balls and spring. Some of the water that got in looked like it caused the mating surafces to become a little correoded but overall it wasnt too bad.

There didnt seem to be any pitting either so thats good. The main rust was on the large spring and check ball and the hole it sits in. Ive used that scotch brite to clean the hole with success. The outer edge of the gearset half where the oring sits looked to be a little rough but after rubbing it down a bit i think the oring should seat nicely. If not and it leaks still ill be buying a new valve for sure.

Ill look into that panel door opener as i do remember seeing that tool being used in a previous post. Thanks.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Let us know if the pump works after you re-assemble??
​I took one apart back in 1989 and it's still in a jar waiting for someone to put it back together( I'll send it to you)

 

[DunbarLtd]

Funny enough SELOC has a little diagram. It shows one more spring than mine has and doesnt show where the shims go. But i did find a post that mentioned the shims and they go in the hole before the spring.

And so heres what i did. Since i couldnt get the chinese pump to work i split it apart and as I suspected it has the exact same layout of springs and check balls. Its pretty much identical. The only difference is it did not have those little washers down in the hole where the spring was. Now I know those control pressure so that is interesting.

But good news is i can use the check ball that i discovered had pitted after cleaning last night. The chinese pump has the exact same size check ball so ill use it.

Assembling this thing isnt as difficult as youd think. You just have to make sure the check balls are sitting where they need to before squeezing the two halves together. I have a bright flashlight ill use. I already mocked up a test fit and i got it to go together without pinching the balls and denting the aluminum. I just didnt bolt it in. So im pretty confident itll go back together.

The old valve has the circlips that hold the relief valve in place. The new one had the allen head design and the damn thing leaks as i discovered this last night.

I dont think i will have to replace the shuttle valve orings in the old one just yet because it never had a leakdown issue, but its not a bad idea to do it while I got it apart. Ill let you know how it goes and if the old pump works or not. I know it did when we looked at the boat before purchase. It just leaked like a sieve. And it was the oring between the valve and reservoir that was the issue. But since it had water in it i decided to split it in half and clean up some rust that got in there.

The two mating surfaces of the valve are in good shape. Not much corrosion or rust, Just a little surface crud that came off easily. But the ultimate test will be when i fill it and run it. Ill let you know. I may dig into her tonight.

 

[DunbarLtd]

Correction. I did find shims in the chinese valve. What i dont understand is it had 6 shims under the spring and the old valve only had 5. Im positive i didnt lose a shim as i wrapped a towel around the valve when i split it. So that was an interesting find.

 

[jerryjerry05]

If you can find the o-rings ?? Change them.
​The part that leaks in the shuttle are is inside the allenheaded plug.
There are 2 TINY<TINY seals that go bad.
That's usually the leak down problem.

​Harbor Freight along with other tool companies sell o-ring assortment kits.
There are ASE/Metric and a couple made from different materials.
At least 4 that I know of.
​Granger has an assortment too.

 

[DunbarLtd]

You mean these? For shuttle?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Tecumseh...751?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5669e43c2f

And i know exactly what oring kits you are talking about from harbor freight. Like 120 piece.

 

[jerryjerry05]

They go inside the allen head assy.
Look at the pics on the post about the rebuilding the system.

 

[DunbarLtd]

OK but I have the circlip type. And I got a little ahead of myself tonight and mounted the valve to the reservoir. Filled her up and tried it out. Goes up and down now. But i noticed a very slow leak down. I should have known better and just waited to get all the orings replaced first.

So ill break it down again and hopefully have success with replacing the orings. But the main point here is that the system works great with the old valve. No external leaks. Also the trim is not falling and holding steady. I assume its the tilt circuit in the valve but ill do all the orings anyways.

Ill let you know how it goes once i get it all back together and test. Thanks again!

 

[DunbarLtd]

Hey Jerry. I took the boat out today after successfully removing the valves and replacing the orings. One of the relief valves was completely missing its seal and the other was turned to mush. I used the orange seals for the carb kits and everything works good now. Had it on the water for about 6 hours without issue. Thanks again for the assistance.

Now If i can just find out why im fouling plugs Id be in business. lol

 

[jerryjerry05]

What plugs are you using?
​The 88 calls for a UL-18V surface gap type.
​Lots of people use NGK plugs. BUHX

I can't really tell the difference????

I used the same set of Champions for WAY longer than they were supposed to be used.

 

[SkiDad]

i found that Pennzoil Premium Plus keeps my plugs very clean - it's the semi-synthetic version - you can get it at Walmart or Auto Parts place for around 20 bucks a gallon.

 

[DunbarLtd]

Well if it matters I did idle around for quite a while looking for fish and did some trolling at fast idle. Then after maybe an hour of doing that we opened it up and after a couple of minutes @ WOT, the motor all of a sudden started to bog down. So we stopped, removed the plugs and they were fouled. Very oily and dark brown. They were brand new plugs.

My buddy with me said we shouldnt putt around like that. I suppose that makes sense. The first day we took it out we were out for about 3 hours and mainly rode around the lake at pretty high speed and the motor didnt bog down once.

I am using UL18V like you said.... Champion. The plugs that were in there when we got it were champion L76 or something. I forget. After the UL18s fouled I just decided to try the L76 plug and we were off again and it didnt seem to bog down right away. But like a dummy i continued to troll around at idle speed and sure enough by 4 oclock it fouled again and i had to remove and clean the plugs(L76 this time). I really wanted to see if the plug was the issue and it looks like its because i was idling for too long. But Shouldnt I be able to do that without plugs fouling or is this a big no-no with outboards????

I am running 50:1 with Penzoil full synthetic Premium plus "Marine" 2 stroke oil i bought at Wally.. 87 octane gas. First time i added chevron and this time out went with shell. Maybe mixing two brands and also using the old gas a bad idea???

I also added a 16oz can of seafoam to the gas tank last time we took it out.

While i was fixing the interior we didnt start it and it sat for a good 5-6 months. I probably should have taken all the gas out but i figured adding the seafoam would clean it. So it has two different brand gas and some old in there. And also I ran out of 2 stroke oil and started using the penzoil. Im not sure uf all that makes any difference but thought id let you know exactly what ive been doing. Like I said when we first ran it, we didnt really putt around at all and had no issues @WOT except for a little throttle creep which i will adjust with the friction screw on the new controller i bought. But there were no power issues. And that was with the UL18 plugs.

Should i drain all the gas and start over? Or can I go with a higher octane fuel? Also I added an inline fuel filter(From fuel pump to carb) with a clear window and it didnt appear to have junk in it. I also removed the fuel screen filter on the motor while out on the water and it didnt have junk in it either.

 

[DunbarLtd]

SkiDad I am using that exact oil 50:1

 

[SkiDad]

I'm not sure where your mixture screws are set at, but you should be able to run the idle mixture screws around 1 turn out - maybe a tad less on a 3 cylinder. I run mine at 1 turn and the plugs are usually wet when i pull them but not fouled. Jerry can definitely give you the spec on that b/c he has 2 of them.

I have idled for up to 2 hours before on the scenic lake by our house but 95% of the time I'm at another lake going 4000-4800 rpm with skiers. I usually hit WOT when out at least for a few seconds, something I learned my dad b/c he said he cleans out everything. I didn't like the results when I put seafoam in my gas, I think most of that is useless if you run er.

 

[jerryjerry05]

The bad thing about these 2 strokers that use Pre-mix.
They use the oil at the same amount weather trolling or skiing.
If it had VRO it would adjust the amount of oil and not foul out the plugs as bad.
The 2 strokes aren't made to troll for extended lengths.
They're made to go FAST!!

​4 strokes don't foul out at all(if set right).
.
When the boat was new.
​I used to troll a LOT in the Chesapeake Bay.
Both motors carboned up fairly quick.
I had to re-ring both.
The reason was the old oil available wasn't TCW rated back then.
It was actually designed to produce excess carbon????
​Then too many people started screaming when this happened to the high dollar outboards.

​Then they came up with TCW-2 and it improved the situation a lot but didn't fix it.

Then TCW-3 cam about and the problem was pretty much solved.

​I use the cheapest oil from Wally World.
It might smoke a bit more than the synthetics but once you get under way the smoking stops(almost)

​My OPINION!!! Seafoam is a waste of $$$
​Your add something to gas that already has oil and ethanol mixed in it.

​The only thing I add, if I add anything is Sta-Bil or Ethanol stabilizer.

Ethanol actually seems to attract water.

​The small inline filter, you probably won't see water there.
It's recommended for any crud from the tank that might work it's way past the small filter on the pump.

I have the small filter and a water/fuel separating filter on my boat.
Usually I change it every year.

The amount of water to make the motor bog is pretty small.

​The 125 air screw. Is adjusted.
​The later 80's 85's are set at just over 1 turn out and left there.(mine are)
​However some need to be open more than that.
You'll need to figure out where your motor runs best.

You need to run the UL-18V
Cleaning them is way easy, just wipe them on your pants.