89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

[Eddie Rivera]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

these are the pictures of my findings, as i said although that little peace is broken its able to be adjusted. i never had any issues with it starting till i did the float adjustment even with the needle as it is. please help

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

You should be OK. Looks like that broken piece just limits the float drop. Float drop is not as critical as the float height. Float drop just determines how far the needle valve opens up. Looks like the needle valve has a groove in the rubber where it sits on the needle valve seat. Not that bad but probably should be replaced. You may have to adjust the float so that it sits about 1/16" further away from the carburetor body than factory specs in order to get it to seal properly. If it still doesn't seal, you have no choice but to replace it. Once the rubber on the needle valve starts getting a groove in it, if you mess with the needle valve and it rotates around and is not oriented exactly the way it was before it may leak depending on how bad it is.

 

[MickLovin]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

Would it be worth chasing a spare carbie, do you have much access to parts in your area? That needle needs replacement I would suggest.

 

[Eddie Rivera]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

ok guys i went ahead and ordered the needle and got a brand new float. I've been shopping around for a new or rebuilt carb and even got my carb part number (684061) but no luck in my area (Ontario, California) or even on the websites that appear on these forums. If anyone can direct me i would greatly appreciate it.
i have a question == since i bought a brand new float, DOES THE NEW FLOAT STILL NEED TO BE ADJUSTED OR IS IT PRE-ADJUSTED??

 

[Eddie Rivera]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

ok guys i went ahead and ordered the needle and got a brand new float. I've been shopping around for a new or rebuilt carb and even got my carb part number (684061) but no luck in my area (Ontario, California) or even on the websites that appear on these forums. If anyone can direct me i would greatly appreciate it.
i have a question == since i bought a brand new float, DOES THE NEW FLOAT STILL NEED TO BE ADJUSTED OR IS IT PRE-ADJUSTED??

PNWBOAT -- could you explain a bit more on that adjustment of 1/16 further away? I am a little burnt out and sleep deprived. Do you mean when the float sit on its normal position and just hangs? there i should leave it 1/16 further up away from touching? or when carb is upside down and should be parallel to carb? Sorry to be confused - thank you guys!!!

 

[Eddie Rivera]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

ok i installed the new float, i was installing the needle wrong onto the float and thus i assume making a gap, i did not adjust the float at all i just put it in, now when i prime the bulb no fuel leaks out of anywhere, but still it doesn't start, starter turns the fly wheel fine and i cleaned or dried the spark plugs and this time they were not so wet, its only started 3 times. The very first it started is when i put everything back for the first time then i turned it off cuz i didn't fully tightened the bolts holding the lower unit to the mid leg and then it would not start but it eventually did and i turned it off, and the last time it took a while again but it started and stayed on for a while longer and turned off by it self, so now i got a new filter fresh fuel a new float and the new needle is coming on Thursday but i dont know what else to do in the mean time or to test im getting frustrated, please advice!!!!

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

Have you verified you compression readings? If in fact, the compression is only 35 LBS, then there's no sense in spending anymore time and money into carburetor, adjusting this and that. The rings are not sealing which usually means you need to have the cylinders bored, oversize pistons and rings put in to bring it up to specs. It'll never run right with only 35LBS of compression.

 

[Eddie Rivera]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

:-( No I have not checked the compression again. I do understand what your saying. Last time I asked about the compression you guys told me it didn't matter if it read that low that both read the same and that's what mattered. I changed the alternator cuz it had no spark and found it with a burnt wire and rebuilt the gear casing and did other things. The first time I put it in the water it only did 10 MPH on full throttle and it bogged out turned off again and could not start it. I asked you guys if the cause may have been the altitude as the lake people told me that happens sometimes and I found the fuel line to the carb lose and I was leaking an extreme amount of water with bad exhaust gaskets which I just finally installed. I do understand your point I'm just confused about why it won't start after I started messing with the carb if before it would turn on and never really had any problems starting or even doing the little ten MPH run.
My wishful thinking and ignorant self wishes it could start first like before after spending so many months and so much money on it and then water test it and takle the next step, but I will test it again with my little cheap brand new (I used it only once) and try to find a store with a tool rental and confirm.
Wow I'm overwhelmed with the time and financial investment I've done and frustrated with the next step and investment.
What will it take to rebuild it? Could I do it my self to save money? Where would I find the pistons and where would I get the cylinders done bigger? Would I need to invest in more tools? And what if after I do this it still won't start?

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

I hear what you're saying. I think we've all been there at one time or another. Very easy to get frustrated and marine parts are not cheap as compared to automotive.

At this point I would not assume that you have to re-build the motor. Until you do the compression test, you are just guessing. If in fact the compression is very low, then I would take a look at a used power head. You can get a 50HP relatively cheap. I see one right now for $350 including shipping with good compression. Piston kits alone are about $80 - $110 each depending on whether they are cast or forged.

Getting back to you motor and starting. Are you familiar with the neutral fast idle position with you throttle handle?

 

[Eddie Rivera]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

Wow, I would love to look into that power head your talking about. And would love to hear you guys' advice on changing the power head VS rebuilding the motor or other fixes?
Regarding the neutral fast idle position - I don't know with certainty but can only assume it's where I pull the lever out to starting position and push it a bit forward????
I did that yesterday and forward it only goes forward very little an back just a bit more.
I that what you mean? I will do my compression test again today. I do remember last year being either 35 or 33 in both. If any other suggestions - Please advice. The new needle wil come in Thursday too BTW.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

Yes pull the handle out towards the center of the boat and push forward. That's the neutral fast idle. Here's the starting procedure that I use. Others use the same method with minor variations.

1. Squeeze the primer bulb until it's firm.
2. Place the throttle in the neutral fast idle position and push the throttle forward.
3. Turn the ignition key, push in on the key to engage the choke but for no more than 3 seconds while still engaging the starter.
4. If it doesn't start, engage the starter again but without engaging the choke to help clear out any fuel.
5. Repeat step 3 again. If still no start, repeat step 4, followed by step 3 again.

It should only take a couple of attempts to get it started.

 

[Eddie Rivera]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

Ok I will try it that specific way. I kinda did it like that late last night when I replaced the float with a brand new one but without any adjusting. I will also do the compression test and attempt to do the spark test. The spark plugs I have in there now were put on last year and only have been used for about less than 20 minutes total at the most but should I install new ones? I have a spare set. Let me know. Do you have the link to that site selling that power head? Or where do I search that you recommend?

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

Sent you a PM, Private Message.

 

[Eddie Rivera]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

Ok guys the results are in - I did the neutral fast idle start and it cranks but won't start. I did a spark test and I got spark on both cylinders - it's orange looking. I have a brand new stator I put in. I tested the kill switch and it's fine.
I did a compression test with my harbor freight tester and a loaner from auto zone and both testers gave the same reading and I did it twice each. I connected the tester first, then I pulled my lever out and forward to crank the motor and the compression is about 93 on both cylinders and testers.
Did I do the compression test properly?

At 93 lbs should I rebuild or replace the power head?

Should I do more tests, like stator output, trigger output, cd unit output, and test the coils, (starting circuit)circuit baker and rectifier too???

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

Yes you did the compression test correctly. 93LBs is not the greatest, but it's certainly better than the 35LBs that you were getting earlier. I would wait and see how it runs before I would make a decision on re-building.

Are you using the are you using the choke, and for no more than 3 seconds? If you hold the choke in too long it will flood the motor resulting in no start.

 

[Eddie Rivera]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

I apologize! I never did get 35 lbs- my memory served me wrong. It was always this much.
When I took it to the lake for the first time after changing the stator and lower unit rebuild, it always started quickly, it bogged out, I only did 10 MPH on wot.
Supposedly what contributed to that was the altitude of the lake, the carb's inline fuel line was lose(hose clamp), the carbs bowl was leaking, I had just added oil to the tank then went to add fuel as we were leaving to the lake and never did get to properly mix and shake except as it shook in the drive to the lake about half hour and I had a horrible water leak issue from the broken exhaust gaskets. Eventually the motor turned off and I could not start it back on on the water so I posted a video of my motor starting when I changed the stator before going to the lake and another video after the lake showing the horrible leak. I can try to add both again so you can see.
How ever I am stuck now with new stator and new exhaust gaskets I added last week, and messed with the float and now it started only 3 times and once stayed on for maybe 4 minutes and turned off again and I'm stuck.
What else can I do? I get the brand new carb main needle today, I will install and try that I guess first. But remember I just added a brand new float without adjusting and the only difference now is the prime bulb gets hard and won't leak but won't start.
What's can I do?
How can I clear the motor of fuel if it floods?

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

OK get the new needle valve installed and adjust the float level as per the instructions. Upside down, with the new needle valve the top of the float should be parallel to the body of the carb. Adjust float drop with carb right side up so that it almost touches the carb body. Test and make sure the primer bulb gets firm. Use the neutral fast idle to start the motor and be light with the choke.

If you think the motor is flooded, just crank it over with the throttle all the way forward in the neutral fast idle position for 5 or 6 seconds without any choke.

One other thing that comes to mind is a fuel pump diaphragm, but first you need to see if you can get it started.

 

[Eddie Rivera]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

Thanks so much for your time, what do you think about my compression being 90-95 lbs??
I agree with your idea, i was actually going to ask you about the fuel pump, i know i changed the little round rubber peace on the intake part but hats all i ever did with that, and someone mentioned to me - what if its the fuel pump. so i will proceed as you recommend, i'm just afraid of mis adjusting that new float. but i will take pictures this time before the adjustments and after and i hope to get your opinion

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

I think the compression is low, but it should run, just not as well as it could.

 

[Eddie Rivera]

Re: 89 force 50 hp hard to start after exhaust gasket change and carb gaskets

these are videos of my motor;

first video of first time starting it, 89 Force 50 Horse power 2 stroke 507X89B - YouTube

after changing the stator and rebuilding the gear case with new spark plugs 89 Force 50 HP 2 stroke 507X89B - YouTube

last video - after putting it on the lake and bogging out and before i changed the exhaust gaskets and i messed with my carbs float