99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

[Island_oki2000]

I have a 99 Ficht 225. This has been a great motor. This year it has started to run rough at idle and is progressively getting worse. Now it's at the point that I have to almost give it full throttle in neutral to start, it takes a long time to warm up. Even with throttle at start up it takes a while for the motor to rev above 1000RPM. As it warms up it revs up sometimes, then back down. If I put the throttle at idle it dies. Once really warm, it will idle but very rough and it will start right up. There are no warning lights and at WOT it runs smooth with seemingly no lose of power or speed.

I've searched the forum and can't find any posts that match my symptom. ANy help is appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Mac3]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

I've got a 98 150 Ficht and if that happened to me I'd replace the spark plugs if they have done more than 75 hours, supposed to do a 100 but I have had that problem- dirty fuel can blow away at wot, could be that. That's the man in the boat's view, the iboat experts can no doubt add to that. (I mean that in the nicest way, I love iboats)
cheers
David

 

[daselbee]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

Have you checked the exhaust pressure fitting lately (or ever)? The EMM has a hose with a round diaphragm attached to the side of the EMM. It provides an exhaust pressure signal to the EMM for operation. Follow the hose down from the EMM to the lower rear stbd exhaust adapter area, and you will see a fitting where the hose attaches. You have to move the lower stbd side cowl away to see it. Disconnect hose, and check for carbon clogging the fitting. I use a 1/8" drill bit to ream it out. Check the hose itself for clogging. You will not be able to blow thru the hose due to that round diaphragm up top, but you can lightly crush the hose with pliers, and see if carbon falls out. By the way, when the computer is hooked up, and the engine is under power, the pressure reading is a NEGATIVE reading, i.e. -13.54 in. H2O (for example). Why they measure it in inches of H2O is beyond me. Checking this fitting should be a standard maintenance operation. It will not throw a code when clogged. When this fitting is clogged, the plugs will carbon foul black very quickly.

 

[schematic]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

Why they measure it in inches of H2O is beyond me.

Inches of water is much more accurate for miniscule pressure measurements under 1 psi.

Good info on the above, daselbee

 

[multimech]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

What daslbee said and add my experience with poor starting and poor idling can be down to a bad EMM. If you have a friend with the same engine, try a swap. Don't run it past idle though. See if starts and idles better. If it does, you need to R+R the EMM. From my experience this is not uncommon.

Actually the best thing to do is to throw EVDiags on the engine and watch the monitor. You can check system volts, TPS volts, engine temp. exhaust pressure (make sure the numbers change on this, no change indicates blockage) You can also increase the flow on the injectors. We have to frequently enrich the injectors at idle on certain models because the pintles wear. If you can't do this, it might be a good idea to pay an hour for a good shop to diagnose it for you.

 

[daselbee]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

Hey multi....a bit of advice please.... Just how do you determine if an injector is lean? I know about killing each injector by the software, but how do you tell if any one cylinder is lean? When I kill each cyl at idle, the engine basically sounds the same, RPM drops, and then the idle control circuitry in the EMM picks it back up...Also, when underway, if you kill an injector, the only kind of indication you have is the drop in RPM. But that doesn't seem accurate enough to detect a lean cylinder. I ask because I just burned down #5 on a newly repaired 200, and all indications on the PC were OK before I gave it to the customer. Timing was dead on, and no codes were thrown. It was still lean on #5 when underway.

 

[schematic]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

Hey multi....a bit of advice please.... Just how do you determine if an injector is lean? I know about killing each injector by the software, but how do you tell if any one cylinder is lean? When I kill each cyl at idle, the engine basically sounds the same, RPM drops, and then the idle control circuitry in the EMM picks it back up...Also, when underway, if you kill an injector, the only kind of indication you have is the drop in RPM. But that doesn't seem accurate enough to detect a lean cylinder. I ask because I just burned down #5 on a newly repaired 200, and all indications on the PC were OK before I gave it to the customer. Timing was dead on, and no codes were thrown. It was still lean on #5 when underway.

just curious. I have no Ficht experience as we have very few around here, but

Couldn't you:

-do a pressure drop test of each injector with a pulse tester..... or
-peg the throttle at 1000 with IAC disconnected (if so equipped) kill each cylinder and compare rpm and timing change.....or
-peg throttle at 1500 and measure each cylinder's spark plug temp...


just wondering....

 

[daselbee]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

Schematic...I know the answer to your middle point, the one about IAC...

These engines don't have an IAC. When I kill each injector individually via the software, the engine bogs down and then the EMM idle speed control routines pick the idle speed back up to normal, usually right at 650 rpm. When you then put the injector back online, the engine races a bit until the EMM corrects back down to 650. That is one test I used, trying to see if the bog, and pickup, and race up was the same on all six when I took the injectors offline for each cylinder. It would take a real trained ear to really hear a lean cylinder. If there was a serious problem with the injector, like totally clogged, then you could definitely tell, as the engine would not respond when you took the injector offline. But I am wondering about that very subtle lean condition that may occur, just enough to burn down a piston......

Never thought about plug temps, and I am not sure what tool you would use to measure pressure drop....you talking on the incoming fuel line to each injector? If so, it would have to be some really sophisticated tool. Each injector has a fuel feed and a fuel return line, so there is cool fuel flowing thru at all times, even when it it pulsing to shoot a load (so to speak) to the cyl.

 

[schematic]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

I they don't use IAC then they must be using timing to vary idle speed. If so, maybe one could compare timing increase for each disconnected injector?

I would think a lean condition hot enough to eat a piston should be able to be picked up on the spark plug body with infrared gun.


If the fuel rail maintains residual pressure when powered down (as most EFI do to prevent perculation) then a standard pressure gauge may be used to watch a pressure drop when an injector is pulsed. Rekey to pressure up for each consecutive injector and pulse each injector separately with an injector pulse tool. I use one all the time, especially on 4-stroke Yammys. Shows up a partially plugged injector nicely.

I don't know s_it from putty when it comes to Ficht, but I can't see why it wouldn't work. If the software will allow individual injector pulsing, then you wouldn't even need a "Injector Pulse Tool".


Hope we don't get spanked for stealing this thread.....

 

[Island_oki2000]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

HAHAHA, I was wondering how my original question turned into this discussion on burning a piston. Oh well, I'm gonna take the motor to the shop here and have them run the dianostics on it and see if they can figure it out. I just hope they don't come back saying I need to replace the injectors.

I guess that is a question, since it does start with the throttle engaged (almost WOT) and then finally warms up but idles rough, would that be a dirty or clogged injector issue. Would SEAFOAM work to possibly clear it out or should I stay away from SEAFOAM on a FICHT?

 

[Island_oki2000]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

Also, as it's warming up and the throttle is still engaged, the RPMs will sometimes race up and then back down. After it finally is warm, I can move the throttle back to neutral and it will idle rough.

 

[multimech]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

Ok Daselbee, here is how I TRY to determine if a cylinder is running lean. Dependent on the model and the software version of EVdiags (I know it sounds like legalize) I will put the engine into gear. Disable the idle controller to keep it from messing with the testing (I guess this is the IAC schematic was talking about, it can be done with the latest version of EVdiags on certain models) then I drop each cylinder and see if the rpms drop at the same rate as the others, this will be shown on the Evdiags screen. I do this at different rpms to notice a difference. I usually only check engines that have had water in the fuel at some point or sat for awhile. I don't know injectors to be lean for no obvious reason. I guess you could rig a gauge at each injector, but that would be time consuming and is not done in any shop I have ever worked because of that reason. Sometimes it is damn difficult to find a lean injector. There is no one known to ME, that will check DI injectors for flow, which is a good baseline for standard injectors. Hope this helps.

 

[multimech]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

Island, it could be a lot of things. That is why I suggested taking it to a shop. If they are worth their salt they will put it in a test tank and test it. If they have a good spare EMM (for testing) they will swap it out for yours. They will be able to monitor all stats on the engine.

In my experience, it is either an injector that is down or a bad EMM that is causing your problem. Has the engine ever gotten water in it, through to the injectors? Has the EMM ever gone above 212 F? Is your fuel fresh?

 

[multimech]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

Daselbee, I would look back at the failure on your customers engine. Did it fail on the same cylinder? Was the oil pump (lift pump) changed?(I always change them as a matter of course) Did the engine make W.O.T at the time of repair and after break in? Was the new rebuild carefully inspected for accurate cooling throughout the block? (This is not a hit at you, I don't know where or how you got the block) Were all of the injector serial numbers accurate in the engine report?

I have had the same thing happen to me. Sometime it is not the injectors, but the EMM. The EMMs for the DI's are tricky things and are subject to damage from overheat. Did he ever have an overheat on the EMM above 212 F ?

The factory can't even produce these engines to get more than about 600 hrs from my experience. I don't feel too bad when they fail after a rebuild, and I have done everything to make sure all the work that can be done is done. The Etecs are a bit better, I am finding after working on both for years, the same upper limit on them. 600 hrs. That is strictly my experience though, others may disagree. I am beginning to like Yamaha 4 strokes very much.

 

[daselbee]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

Multi, thanks. That was pretty much my procedure regarding dropping the cyls individually with the software. Another step I take is to get the engine under load on the water, and at 4k, I drop cyls looking for even response from all cyls. I also read the plugs often using the high speed shut down method. None of these tests showed any potential problem. Regarding the autopsy of the engine, truth be told, the owner hasn't released it back to me to look at. I do expect it back, and will go over it thoroughly. all I have right now is his assertion that it burned up #5 and has low compression there. I trust his statements, so I have full expectation that he is correct. Here is the story: Man had two engines, one good block with bad EMM (three finger salute), and the other a bad hole #6, with a good EMM. I swapped the good EMM onto the good block, swapped the injectors along with it cyl for cyl, verified the serial numbers were matching in the EMM, etc.....and WARNED HIM OFTEN that what we were doing was dangerous. He said go ahead... We had no real way to tell if the parameters associated with the serial numbers of the injectors were programmed properly. BRP WILL NOT GIVE OUT THE PARAMETERS when you only have the serial number of the injector. These injectors had no bar code to scan, just a serial number sticker. Everything matched when compared to what was in the EMM. WE had to assume that they were right because they came off a running engine. I did all the above checking, testing, etc, and it failed on #5. There was no break in required, as it was a running block. Regardiing hijacking this thread.....the OP doesn't seem to be interested anyway. He's punting and going to the dealer to fix his problem. Didn't even do the simple check that I suggested.

 

[multimech]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

It's a DI! I know you are familiar with these things and I don't mind telling you that I don't like them. They hardly ever get past 600 hrs without a major failure. They go out of the shop, with all good reports and come back the next week with some other problem.

I know you are thinking and rethinking the rebuild. Don't worry too much. We in Florida, I see you live here too, all have jobs like this and all do the same thing. That is if we are competent and care about our work. Customers can be tough and some are just nasty. I hope yours will see reason and accept the responsibility for allowing the work you warned him about.

One question. Did you get the parameters for the injectors by saving the profiles from his old EMM? If so, I have had problems reinstalling them onto a different EMM and having the digits walk. Compare the engine report from his engine that you took them from and compare it to the engine report from the rebuild with them installed. Look at the digits, they are gobblydeegook, but if they are not in the same places, and or digits have been added, there might lie your problem. Although when this has happened to me, the engine would run, but roughly. Just make sure they match exactly in the same postion as his engine report from the old engine.

 

[daselbee]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

I took the EMM and injectors as a complete setup all together, and installed them on his good block. The only thing I was able to verify was of course the serial number only. I have no way to know if the parameters were accurate, I just had to "go for it" since they whole setup came from a previously running motor. I wish to he** BRP would let go of that information. Older mechs / engines need to know if they are set up right. Even an Evinrude dealer will someday be checking an engine over, and say "Hey, I wonder if these parameters are actually right?" Very likely scenario. I will add a new testing routine to my checkout procedure. I will index the flywheel for all six, and check timing on all six. If I put the engine in fixed timing mode, I ought to be able to see if all are correct, vs. checking just #1. For all I know, the timing on #5 might have been whacked out for some reason. Multi, where in FL are you?

 

[multimech]

Re: 99 Ficht 225 Hard Start/Rough Idle

I am in Largo. I work for a very high volume BRP dealer. We get a LOT of DIs through our doors.

I don't know if my explanation was clear Daselbee. I meant to look at the numbers that indicate the flow rates on the part of the engine printout that deals with the injectors. I have seen the numbers "walk" and have spurious digits thrown into the mix. I get this problem when I "install" a new injector (could be any random injector file) and save the "old" injector file, which I will then intall onto the new EMM. This is the only way that I know to get the injector files for old injectors from another engine, short of having the original disk provided by BRP. I know BRP will tell you to go take a hike if you ask for injector files that do not have the numbers they ask for when downloading a new injector file to install a new injector.

The timing test would be sound. As you know, it if fails, it would be an expensive fix and probably make the entire thing unaffordable to most customers. Arrgggh DIs!