A Couple of Economic articles

OldMercsRule

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

Dr Sowell's points are ludicrous. It comes from trying to make some tortured political point where there was none to be made.

And yes, building products prices were very high during the boom (and they are much lower now) That is the point. Just from the point of material availability, there was simply no room for added construction, no matter if there was no local regulation of any sort on building.

There are lots of other reasons why his point is not valid--that one is as good as any to refute his thesis.

Yer logic, (or lack of logic), is unbelievable. How does supply cornstraints of materials, (which I agree with yer cornclusions about that aspect), have anything to do with the price moves of existing structures and raw available land in an area or many areas the Liberals have restricted new cornstruction or placed huge hurdles on any new permits? That obviously makes existing functional structures in the restricted areas MUCH more valuable if there is a steady demand. Takes only one brain cell to understand Dr. Sowell's point.

Do ya have at least one functional brain cell? JR
 

jasonh

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

Who could have ever anticipated a boating forum would contain within some of the most entertaining and thought provoking political discussions?

I love it. Has anyone in the history of the world done more with one brain cell than Murky?
 

SpinnerBait_Nut

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

Who could have ever anticipated a boating forum would contain within some of the most entertaining and thought provoking political discussions?

I love it. Has anyone in the history of the world done more with one brain cell than Murky?
Absolutely not.:D
 

Haut Medoc

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

It is a finely tuned brain cell.....;):D
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

Thanks fer the cormplaments you three. BTW: me Bro Haut was the first to let me know I only had one working cell!! Thanks Bro!! :D:D

Back on the hunt fer dim wit Lib statements n' examples of potential mental disorders that can help all our brains function better:

"Democratic Debate Spawns Weird Economics" US News n' World Report


http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-commerce/2007/8/8/democratic-debate-spawns-weird-economics.html

OK Mrs. Jones: ya really want one of these boobs runnin' the Country??
 

PW2

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

OH, I see, ya really don't know anything about 'em then! I thought you were spankin' me fer "where I've been" all my life or some such. ("Where ya been Murky?") They are real new. Once I get some hard info I'll spoon feed me initial cornclusions to the folks here. If you can't see the potential challange n' huge risks of huge concentrations of, (unregulated potentially secret) massive piles of capital in the hands of some of our advisaries, I just can't help ya: PW2. Go back to sleep. N' enjoy the nap, hope there isn't any trouble when ya read about this in the MSM in a few years. JR

Who fed them the money??? You think they ought to be forced not to take our money, or simply burn it when they get it??

I have no clue why I should be concerned about it...Now in the mid east, I have to admit that I don't think it a wise idea that we seem to be financing both sides of the war we are in, but then that's hardly new news, and if anyone was concerned, they sure don't seem to show it!
 

PW2

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

Yer logic, (or lack of logic), is unbelievable. How does supply cornstraints of materials, (which I agree with yer cornclusions about that aspect), have anything to do with the price moves of existing structures and raw available land in an area or many areas the Liberals have restricted new cornstruction or placed huge hurdles on any new permits? That obviously makes existing functional structures in the restricted areas MUCH more valuable if there is a steady demand. Takes only one brain cell to understand Dr. Sowell's point.

Do ya have at least one functional brain cell? JR

Hmmm...So how exactly do you build that house if there is not enough lumber and plywood and OSB to build it?

And if you could somehow glut the market with houses in order to keep the price down, what do you propose to do with all the mills that would have to close when the inevitable downturn comes. Or the homebuilders and construction workers that are out of a job? Or if you need to sell your house and move when there is no more market?

There is a reason the housing market, sales- new and existing, starts, and other related data, are tracked over time.

Liker I said, his argument is ludicrous.

I really try to avoid personally attacking you, Murky, as it is real clear you really do only have one brain cell, and it is clearly overworking.
 

PW2

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

BTW, all these land use regulations are developed by people we elect, presumably acting on our behalf That is the very essence of a representative democracy.

What precisely is it about democracy that you dislike it so? I am curious.
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

Who fed them the money??? You think they ought to be forced not to take our money, or simply burn it when they get it??

PW2: Settle down! You are talking right past me. Where did I ever say that they ought to be forced not to take our money? We have to pay for mfg goods from China or Oil from the Middle East if we want the stuff, that's elemental.

I have no clue why I should be concerned about it..

You can nap all ya want and let the world pass you by all you want, I said: I'm corncerned about a new developement: potentially secret off shore VERY LARGE piles of money directed by competitors/enemies that's all: PW2. I don't care what you are corncerned about.

.Now in the mid east, I have to admit that I don't think it a wise idea that we seem to be financing both sides of the war we are in, but then that's hardly new news, and if anyone was concerned, they sure don't seem to show it!

Of course the rest of the rational world is corncerned about payin' big $ for oil, (to enemies or potential enemies), but there is no magic wand: PW2. If ya wanna power boat or drive yer car we need the crude to refine into fuel fer yer needs: REAL SIMPLE if ya have that functioning brain cell we have discussed.

All I'm doin' is tellin me buds on iboats, (includin' you) that there is a new dangerious deal goin' on in the world at large. The MSM may not know about it yet, (my guess), or they may know and not want us to know. If they can blame George Bush it will be on the front page. Private state run slush funds could and probably will cause lots of potential trouble down the road a bit. Jus' look at all the trouble George Soros causes with his piddly lil' pile o' dough. The Chinese n' Russians will be able to buy n' sell ol George Soros in a few years with their chump change. Ignore it all ya want. I plan ta keep me eyes n' ears on the ball. JR
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

BTW, all these land use regulations are developed by people we elect, presumably acting on our behalf That is the very essence of a representative democracy.

What precisely is it about democracy that you dislike it so? I am curious.

I don't dislike a Cornstatutional Republic that uses a democratic process to put the elected rulers in power. I don't like it when dim wits support power transfers NEVER AUTHORIZED by the Cornstatution at the foundation of the Rebublic. That's all: PW2. It's not something that stops ol' Murky from havin' fun n' enjoyin' livin' in the greatest Country ever to exist. Gotta go now have a great evening!!!! Respectfully, JR
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

Hmmm...So how exactly do you build that house if there is not enough lumber and plywood and OSB to build it?

What does this have to do with the price of turnips: PW2?

And if you could somehow glut the market with houses in order to keep the price down, what do you propose to do with all the mills that would have to close when the inevitable downturn comes. Or the homebuilders and construction workers that are out of a job? Or if you need to sell your house and move when there is no more market?

Again: you are talkin' past me, we were discussing Dr. Sowell's acurate contention that regs cause the prices of existing structures to rise. Are you smokin' some of the good stuff yer not willin' to share with ol Murky?

There is a reason the housing market, sales- new and existing, starts, and other related data, are tracked over time.

????

Liker I said, his argument is ludicrous.


No PW2, yer havin' trouble cornectin' Boom's dots.


I really try to avoid personally attacking you, Murky, as it is real clear you really do only have one brain cell, and it is clearly overworking.

I admit as I did to me Bro that havin' only one cell is a limitation. Yers seems to be the smoke in yer pipe that clouds that sharp mind you obviously have. Good night PW2!! Respectfully JR
 

PW2

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

Hmmm...

And all this time I thought prices were determined by supply and demand.

Silly me....

So if you want to buy a home, according to Murky and Dr Sowell, high prices are the fault of the libs. Not sure who to blame when prices fall and you are looking to sell your home, but I feel assured that somehow that'll be the fault of libs too.

I think I'm finally beginning to understand!
 

SS MAYFLOAT

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

Hmmmm, very intresting. Supply and demand? or Location Location Location?

My house on the west coast would sell for $250,000. Where it is at now, I would be lucky to get $100,000 since about 25% of the houses around this area is up for sale or foreclosure. Most of the problem is due to lenders loaning more money than what the properties are worth.

The biggest thing going on now is people refinancing, getting a large amount of money, and then moving to a state that will not garnish wages.
 

PW2

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

Hmmmm, very intresting. Supply and demand? or Location Location Location?

My house on the west coast would sell for $250,000. Where it is at now, I would be lucky to get $100,000 since about 25% of the houses around this area is up for sale or foreclosure. Most of the problem is due to lenders loaning more money than what the properties are worth.

The biggest thing going on now is people refinancing, getting a large amount of money, and then moving to a state that will not garnish wages.

Of course, location is important, but that is part of the supply and demand equation.

As far lenders lending more money than a place is worth, someone agreed to lend the money, and someone to borrow it. There's fault on both sides, even if the result is the same.
 

POINTER94

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

I usually agree with Sowell, but in this case his thinking is flawed (IMHO). If you put a home on every green space and preserve in the SF area, the prices of homes would still be going up and or down. These areas are limited to a radius of economic feasability and access to jobs. I am not so anti-government as to not understanding the principals of proper land use planning. Green spaces (in the right measure) enhance our lives, but take up so little of the available space as to be economically insignificant. Now when someone wants to build a hospital and are blocked by an insect nobody ever heard of, in the middle of the desert, I get cranked.

Sowell's link is tenuos at best. He has a point and maybe he is not presenting it well, but taxes, and dumbarse building codes based on political science are greater effects than what he is espousing. I am sure his model can be made to fit in several locations but in the USA as a whole, he misses the mark. Our major cities are now "metropolitian areas". They concompass dozens of smaller municipalities, each with the power to regulate construction based on their models. Some good - some bad. But each offset each other and fails to meet Sowells one size fits all economic explaination based on regulation. Detroit would let you build a home in the middle of a grade school playground right now.

Housing prices went threw the roof for the same reason the dot coms did. Speculation. Yes, government regulation did play a part, but hardly enough to justify what was not short of spectacular increases. With the insane rush to flip homes/invest and turn big profits in just a few months, joined with the frenzy to buy more than one could afford in very specific areas, there came a point of saturation and down came prices. And those idiots who thought that these "creative" financing alternatives were actually viable, they get what they deserve. But I am sure the government will be there to "ease their pain" with free money. It's the election season right around the corner. And socialists, will act like socialists.
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

Hmmm...

And all this time I thought prices were determined by supply and demand.

Silly me....

Ya know PW2, I don't know if yer smokin' wacky tabacky or nippin' too many adult beverages. Please re read (or read for the first time my post #14) which specifically addresses the Demand side of this issue, in which I clearly place more weight then does Dr. Sowell. Dr Sowell's argument is about Supply restrictions and increased costs associated with regulations. I also stated that Dr. Sowell is empasizing the political aspects of some supply restrictions.

So if you want to buy a home, according to Murky and Dr Sowell, high prices are the fault of the libs.

Clearly some aspects of the higest prices are clearly from Libs' regulations n' land use policies as Dr. Sowell accurately states. The San Francisco area of this wonderfull Country is where some of the highest prices in the Country are, it has some of the wackiest land use/building regs and the concentration of very risky interest only loans that are causin' some of the troubles are in that town.

Not sure who to blame when prices fall and you are looking to sell your home, but I feel assured that somehow that'll be the fault of libs too.

I think I'm finally beginning to understand!

No PW2 yer talkin' right past me. If ya re read this whole thread or read it before ya fire up the pipe or nip the sauce you will see I have not disagreed with yer points regarding material cornstraints/cost driven aspects of this mess. I don't weight the corncerns Dr. Sowell states as heavy as he does, but he is primarily a political pundit not an economic pundit. His points are VALID not "ludicrous". Respectfully, JR
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

I usually agree with Sowell, but in this case his thinking is flawed (IMHO). If you put a home on every green space and preserve in the SF area, the prices of homes would still be going up and or down.

Pointer: the point is the magnitude n' velocity of the move in prices. Demand for housing is the PRIMARY factor driving housing prices over the last few decades, (Dr. Sowell would have done a better job with his article to acknowlege that fact).

Here in this very Liberal upside down town that I live in the prices have been dominated by one REAL BIG FACTOR. Microsoft millionares, (ya know that lil' bity company that did not exist in 1975 when I got me degree in Communism from the University of Washington). The Libs here in Gods' Country have greatly aggrivated the problems with very stupid land use policies dominated by their Liberal sensabilities, (some of wich I may actually agree with). If there were less "Growth Managment" policies here in Western Washington the homes would be 25% or more cheaper because the supply would be allowed to expand to accomidate the huge demand.

George Soros crushed the Pound Sterling in the late 1970s or early 1980s, and Asian Currencies in the mid to late 1990s by applying this very corncept. The 'robber barrons' of the late 1800s also used this tactic (the biggest n' by far the NASTIEST gun bein' none other then: Jay Gould!) Mr. Gould brought tears to the eyes of many famous industrialists, (Mellon, Vanderbuilt, Astor et al) by using his wealth at the margin to tip the price up or down DRAMATICALLY!!!! Teddy Roosevelt, (not "Olsmobile), passed anti trust laws to curtial this kinda stuff. THAT IS WHY THESE SOVERIEGN FUNDS I ALSO MENTIONED IN THIS THREAD (THAT PW2 POO POOs) ARE SUCH A BIG DEAL. Some of you will never get it, (the corncept I'm poundin' here), without some serious homework. And even after some studies this may be tooo heavy a corncept fer some not familier with financial corncepts cornnected with market moves, (PW2 seems to struggle with understanding this). Dr. Sowell is a very smart cookie and apparently assumes his readers are aware of the financial fundamentals about asset moves I cornsider VERY BASIC, but my background is financial, and I can see PW2 does not get it.


These areas are limited to a radius of economic feasability and access to jobs. I am not so anti-government as to not understanding the principals of proper land use planning. Green spaces (in the right measure) enhance our lives, but take up so little of the available space as to be economically insignificant.

Totally agree: Pointer, (IF THE LAND USE PLANNING IS RATIONAL AND NOT DESIGNED TO LIMIT HOMES BUILT n' FORCE PEOPLE OUT OF CARS n' FORCE CENTRAL CITY DENSITY), ya just have to live here on the Left coast fer a bit to see what Dr. Sowell is talkin' about. IT IS VERY CLEAR TO ME. If the Libs get carried away as they do here in Seattle n' San Francisco the price moves in a very strong market are very big, (MUCH BIGGER THEN THEY WOULD BE OTHERWISE).


Now when someone wants to build a hospital and are blocked by an insect nobody ever heard of, in the middle of the desert, I get cranked.

Only Libs drunk by the Corntrol they have do that kinda thing, (maybe a stupid Cornservative could do it too). Ya know: Power Corrupts.

Sowell's link is tenuos at best. He has a point and maybe he is not presenting it well, but taxes, and dumbarse building codes based on political science are greater effects than what he is espousing. I am sure his model can be made to fit in several locations but in the USA as a whole, he misses the mark. Our major cities are now "metropolitian areas". They concompass dozens of smaller municipalities, each with the power to regulate construction based on their models. Some good - some bad. But each offset each other and fails to meet Sowells one size fits all economic explaination based on regulation. Detroit would let you build a home in the middle of a grade school playground right now.

That maybe true Pointer. My perspective is decidedly Left Coast n' Dr Sowell is spot on fer the Seattle area. I thought he was pointing to the largest problem areas with interest only loans in the article.

Housing prices went threw the roof for the same reason the dot coms did. Speculation. Yes, government regulation did play a part, but hardly enough to justify what was not short of spectacular increases.

As I said: Dr Sowell is a mainly a political pundit, and he is taking a valid matter (on the margin in many markets), and calling it a PRIMARY problem. If I wrote the article, I would not have done that. That undoubtably does hurt his very valid thesis.

With the insane rush to flip homes/invest and turn big profits in just a few months, joined with the frenzy to buy more than one could afford in very specific areas, there came a point of saturation and down came prices. And those idiots who thought that these "creative" financing alternatives were actually viable, they get what they deserve. But I am sure the government will be there to "ease their pain" with free money. It's the election season right around the corner. And socialists, will act like socialists.

Yes Pointer, ya got that right. I think you get this deal unlike our bud: PW2. Hey PW2, got some smoke fer ol' Murky? :D:D Respectfully, JR
 

PW2

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

Hey Murky, If you don't like the land use regs, elect different people next time.

That my friend, is how democracy works
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

Hey Murky, If you don't like the land use regs, elect different people next time.

That my friend, is how democracy works

No S**T Shurlock!! Ya think ol' Murky is soooooooooo persuasive he can talk all the Seattle Libs into doin' rational things with their votes or their land use issues? That smoke of yers is REAL strong isn't it??? You would fit into yer old home town real well PW2, (as I'm sure you know).

Ol' Murky sticks out like a sore thumb, n' if I choose to put me foot in me mouth n' spew political philosophy or land use philosophy I may get me SUV keyed, n' that could be real bad if I see the perp, (for his health n' ol Murky's freedom n' legal expenses). No thanks. I generally vote fer Republicans here but they are just slightly less Liberal then Democrats in the Mid West, except maybe a Ben Nelson that Eric likes, (I don't blame him cornsidering Chuck Hegal). Senator Nelson would be a great Pol in the State of Washington relative to the two dim wits we have now.

God's Country is what it is: PW2. I luv the place, n' plan to keep RR island in me family n' pass it to the next generation. I managed to navigate the horrendous land use issues that come with owning water front property in a very Liberal state, although it cost me over $100,000.00 in expenses to do it.

I'm under no illusion about the dominance of Libs here n' my ability to change that. Dr Sowell does have a valid point, IMHO. Respectfully, JR
 

POINTER94

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Re: A Couple of Economic articles

Don't feel bad Murky, going to be in Seattle end of the month. It will give the sheeple one more thing to talk about. I'll be the one looking to do business with other capitalists for profit. That should narrow it down a bit.
 
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