A Hwsiii form is completed within...prop shopping. Thanks!

[craze1cars]

Hwsiii...my last post was probably too long-winded and editorialized for you and/or others to easily help me out, got only one response. So I'm starting over. If it's not too presumptuous, I stole your form from another post and filled it out with all my known info. I'm considering a 4 blade stainless Stiletto Bay Pro in a 20 pitch, but would like some confirmation that I'm thinking the right direction, or completely different suggestions if I am off base. Any help you or anyone else can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much to you or anyone else for taking the time...

1. 1999 Stingray 200LX open bow, LINK to specs: http://www.stingrayboats.com/cgi-bi...t=model98_01.pl&model=200l&modelyear=models99

2. 20 ft, 3 in L, 92? W and 2659 lbs base weight of boat with standard
4.3L V6 engine according to above link...so maybe add about 100 lbs for V8 that is on this boat?

3. 3 people, 30 gallons gas

4. What do you use the boat for: Water skiing and wakeboarding

5. Is it a Deep Vee? NOT SURE what that means?I don?t think of this as being very ?deep?. You decide based on specs in link above please. But spec says 19 degrees deadrise.

6. 1999 Volvo 5.0GL 2 bbl carb, 220 hp, Penta SX outdrive.

7. 220 hp, 1.60 gear ratio

8. (WOT) range 4,400 to 4,800

9. N/A, I/O

10. Is it a bass boat or does it have a pad bottom. NO

11. Does it have a hydrafoil, dolefin or trim tabs. NO

12. Volvo or maybe Michigan wheel 14.3 x 21 pitch prop, 3 blade, aluminum.

13. WOT RPM and speed from your current prop and how much gas and how many people were in the boat for the test data and is the speed by GPS. Make sure you trim the prop up until it starts ventilating and then just trim in until it quits ventilating. If you do not have a tach you can buy a Tiny Tach for $ 50
RPM _5,000__ Speed _53 GPS____ No. of people __3___ Gas __30 gals___

14. 650 feet above sea level.

15. Strong and healthy motor, 165 to 173 compression all around, well tuned.

16. I just got this boat, prop came with it. It?s dinged up and needs replace. Want to drop 200 rpms and get it to 4,800 at top speed. Also hoping to calm down significant porpoising at mid-range speeds (30 mph-ish), I'm hoping to be able to hold consistent speeds JUST at planning speed of 20 mph without the boat falling on and off plane for consistent wakeboarding speed. I'm hoping for slightly slower planing speed. I'm hoping to keep or slightly improve on current hole-shot (it?s quite quick out of the hole as-is), hoping to reduce current significant torque steer to the left on take-off with heavy skiers.

17. Does the prop show any damage that you can see? YES. It?s hit bottom several times, a few ?? chunks taken out of blade tips. All lips have been bent, then straightened by me, then filed best possible?but it is in quite rough condition.

18. What problems are you trying to cure or what are you looking for the boat to do that it is not doing the way you think it should or to your expectations. The porpoising at 30 mph is most annoying of all. I currently must trim ALL the way down at this speed to stop the porpoising. Once I get past 40 mph the porpoising stops completely and I can then trim the motor out for better efficiency/speed and smooth riding.

19. N/A?I don?t really care about top speed nor fuel economy. Happy to reduce both if it helps get my other wants...In a perfect world, I want strong holeshot, less mid-range porpoising, slightly slower planing speed, good handling and consistent pulling power for watersports, and less torque-steer to the left during hard loaded launches.

 

[hwsiii]

Re: A Hwsiii form is completed within...prop shopping. Thanks!

Craze, I went back and read your first posting to make sure I had the most information I could have to make the best recommendation I could, as well as I went to Stingray's website to read up on their Z plane hull form to try and understand why they are able to attain the higher speeds they do compared to other similar hull forms that don't perform as well.

The first thing I will do is answer your questions on the Bay Pro line of props. Other than one is even numbered pithes and the other is odd numbered pitches, the main differene is that a Bay Pro 3 will not work as well on a stern drive boat as it requires being mounted very high in the water column to get maximum performance, but the Bay Pro 2 will work well on stern drives as the blade geometry does not require the same mounting height to perform at its best.

Stingray boats have a hull form that is unique in the industry as far as I know, they act more like a bass boat or a pad bottom hull than a normal modified vee, and that is proven by the speeds they attain with the HP they have. My numbers show your speed right now is 7 MPH faster than my calculations show they should be using two different methods of calculation for speeds with your particular boat and motor. I had to use a separate set of calculations that I use only for bass boats and pad bottom boats in order to attain the speeds you are showing for your boat. I would normally just attribute the speeds you gave me to operator error or a bad speedometer, but when I started looking I found that these hull forms from stingray are much faster than the normal boats I see in most boats. I did find that part of the reason they are faster is that they also mount the Stern drive higher than they are normally mounted on most boats, and this will also aid in attaining higher speeds than other similar stern drive boats with similar hull forms.

Having said that, with the banged up prop you are using right now I am not sure that I can get your RPM to the 4,800 RPM you asked for, as any time a prop has been RETUNED as you did (LOL), there is no way to know whether it is running more RPM than it should or it might be running less RPM than originally designed. This is always a problem to get just right at the absolute maximum RPM without going over those RPM. If you really need this you will probably need to bring it to a prop shop and have them fine tune the prop to get those exact RPM after you see exactly what RPM it is turning, and those RPM will change as the weather changes and different loads of people and equipment are placed on the boat, as well as where the loads are placed in the boat. If it was me I probably would not waste the effort or money for these modifications, as you will find that as the temperature and humidity change so will your maximum RPM.

After looking at test results for different props used on these boats I only find a WOT speed difference of about 2 MPH from the cheapest aluminum to even very expensive High Five props. My recommendation for the prop for your boat would be a Solas Amita or Rubex 4 blade prop in a 21" pitch.

I don?t really care about top speed nor fuel economy. Happy to reduce both if it helps get my other wants...In a perfect world, I want strong holeshot, less mid-range porpoising, slightly slower planing speed, good handling and consistent pulling power for water sports, and less torque-steer to the left during hard loaded launches.

The 4th blade will help keep prop slip down on takeoffs which will increase your hole shot, it should really slow down your porpoising if not eliminate it and it will raise the stern of the boat to help stop this, it will also definitely lower your minimum planing speed for slower planing and less throttle jockeying to keep it on plane, you will like the smooth acceleration and nicer ride with a 4 blade versus the 3 blade, and I think it will stop the torque steer on takeoff, but I would recommend you turn your anode to the left a little more to help with this as well, although this is not normally the cause of torque steer to the left during takeoff.


H

 

[craze1cars]

Re: A Hwsiii form is completed within...prop shopping. Thanks!

Thank you SOOOO much for the unbeliveably comprehensive response, and the time you took do the extra research and digging needed for the different hull design that seems to be on these Stingrays.

You covered absolutely every question I had lurking in my mind.

Simply put, I will definitely be taking your recommendation and buy that prop! If it's a little bit off, no harm done, I will re-sell it, exchange it, or have it repitched if more economically feasible. I feel that an educated guess from you is far better than a less educated guess from me!

I plan to mail order it, and then probably won't get a good test run in for a week or two. Once I have tested, I will absolutely share my results with you in great detail, good or bad, hopefully to help you further your research and data.

Interesting you had to liken this hull to that of a bass boat for calculations. Frankly it seems to handle much like a bass boat! It is strange for an I/O. I only bought it because it was cheap due to needing some repairs, not because I have any special fondness for Stingray. But the handling was rather "odd" compared to other I/O's I have owned and driven...much more sporty, a bit more "unsettled" in turns, a touch of "twitchiness" here and there at higher speeds, and not very good at cutting through wakes at all...it just skips right over them. But going really fast in a straight line? It MOVES and works VERY well at that! Much like a bass boat does! Trust me, when that speedo danced almost to 60 on my first test drive, I was convinced it was WAAAAAY off. But even after my GPS confirmed 53 was the real number...I was still very surprised. And even more surprisingly, despite the high top speed, it comes out of the hole quickly and with authority as well. I'd say it goes zero to 30 in less than 5 seconds, though I didn't officially time it, just counted off in my head once. But it is NOT nearly as smooth riding in chop as most I/O's are....it is definitely a smooth water boat.

One last comment, you mention about moving my anode. This drive does not have a trim anode, just a flat plate. And unless I am mistaken, I don't believe the trim tab is missing, it is simply not supposed to have one due to the power steering...many I/O's with power steering do not have a trim tab.

Thanks again. I'll keep you infomed!

EDIT: The I-boats store had the 21 pitch Rubex on sale with a nice additional promotional discount offered at checkout...end price was about $335 for a 4 blade stainless including the hub kit AND shipping...I thought that was a GREAT deal so I placed an order. They can thank you for a sale. I'm looking forward to trying it out!

 

[hwsiii]

Re: A Hwsiii form is completed within...prop shopping. Thanks!

Craze, can you show mewhich exact prop you bought for the boat, I may not have made my recommendation specific enough.


H

 

[craze1cars]

Re: A Hwsiii form is completed within...prop shopping. Thanks!

Was out for the weekend and just saw your note. Below is from my iBoats order form with part numbers. Hopefully this is correct? If not...oh well...it has already been shipped and I will probably be testing with it!

RBX-105
Solas RBX-105 - High Performance Rubber Hub

9553-140-21
Solas Rubex HR4 Blade Stainless 14" dia. X 21" pitch SR

If this is incorrect, please advise. Maybe you indended to recommend the Rubex aluminum 4 blade instead of the stainless version? Frankly I prefer stainless for durability...but maybe that changes performance in your calculations for some reason. I believe I can exchange props thru Iboats at minimal cost BEFORE I open the package. But after it's touched the water it will be mine to keep...

Thanks.

 

[craze1cars]

Re: A Hwsiii form is completed within...prop shopping. Thanks!

Hmmmmm....I've been doing more research and digging of my own. Now I'm starting to think you probably intended to recommend for me the 8653-140-21 Solas HR Titan...and not the 9553-140-21 HR4 Rubex that I ordered.

HR4 Rubex is promoted on the Solas site as good for bass boats and good for adding bow lift on high mounted motors, while the Titan is promoted as adding stern lift and being better for sterndrives that are mounted deeper. Then again, you've discussed how my Stingray is designed differently with some bass boat characteristics?

What really baffles me is this webpage from Solas: http://www.solas.com/newweb/propeller/products/sst_series.asp

On the HR4 they brag about "high rake design for increased bow lift...extra cupping..."

Yet on the Titan they brag about "great stern lift...high rake blade with large cupping design."

Talk about contradictary! So they're saying increased rake and cupping provides bow lift on one product, and the same features provide stern lift on the other???

Regadless of their advertising confusing me, please confirm your intent. I would much rather get the right prop for the job at the small cost of exchange, rather than get something that won't work right for me. No matter what, there will be absolutely no hard feelings at all! You provide a great service to people here for no charge! Thanks again for all your help!

 

[hwsiii]

Re: A Hwsiii form is completed within...prop shopping. Thanks!

craze, the actual prop that I was recommending was the Solas Amita or the Rubex in Aluminum. They are the same prop,the only difference is that the Rubex has a replaceable hub assembly, so it can be used on different motors. It is a stern lifting prop that will tame the porpoising you are having.
The HR 4 is designed to lift the bow and the Titan 4 is designed to lift the stern, I believe the Aluminum is the best choice for your boat and like I said before there is very little differene in speeds between aluminum and SS.

After looking at test results for different props used on these boats I only find a WOT speed difference of about 2 MPH from the cheapest aluminum to even very expensive High Five props. My recommendation for the prop for your boat would be a Solas Amita or Rubex 4 blade prop in a 21" pitch.

I am very sorry I did not clarify that well enough, I don't believe the HR 4 will hold the bow up enough to stop the porpoising that you are experiencing, but it may change at what speed it porpoises.
In the future I will make sure I give better data about the prop I recommend.


H

 

[craze1cars]

Re: A Hwsiii form is completed within...prop shopping. Thanks!

Thanks for clarifying. No harm done at all. Actually, much of my confusion came from this page in Iboats after I read your recommendation:

http://boatpropellers.iboats.com/Vo...andard&**********=178219868&*******=420432637

Notice on that page they say there is only ONE 4 blade aluminum prop available for my Volvo drive. So after visiting this screen, I didn't even know that Rubex and Amitas EXISTED in a 4 blade. Therefore I saw "Rubex" in the 4 blade stainess lineup and figured that was the one you must have been recommending. Rubex and Amitas are only mentioned in 3 blade aluminum versions on that page, and I knew you were not recommending a 3 blade.

With my 20/20 hindsight, I have now discovered that Iboats DOES offer the 4 blade Rubex and Amitas props, but because they are currently out of stock on BOTH of these for my Volvo drive, it just completely disappears from their "recommendations" when I'm prop shopping by drive type. If I knew they existed, I probably would have asked you to clarify.

Well...I reviewed Iboats prop return policy...15% restock fee if I never open the box, and totally non-returnable as soon as it touched water. Plus I gotta pay shipping again both directions. So based on all that, I think at this point I will probably go ahead and accept the prop that arrives later this week, slap it on the boat, and give it a good test run. That way I will at least have a good undamaged 21 pitch 4 blade prop that will give me a real good idea if we're in the right ballpark on pitch and size (which is a much better starting point that the beat-up junker I have now), at least I can take it out for a good WOT run and check my RPM's again. Who knows? Maybe I'll get lucky and I'll really like it!? Anything is possible.

And if I don't like it, I'll probably come out money better re-selling it in like-brand-new condition on Ebay in spring...I do a LOT of Ebay selling. I'm not worried at all, and come spring I wouldn't be surprised if I were to resell this prop for zero loss and maybe even a small profit, which would be better than the hassle of returning it to Iboats, especially since they don't even have either of the two props you're recommending in stock right now. And since I did buy the correct Rubex hub, all I need to find is some other seller who has your recommended 4 blade Rubex aluminum housing in stock, and it will fit the same hub I just purchased with this "incorrect" stainless prop. Quick shopping around shows me this can be done for about $100 from some other on-line venders.

One last question...with the understanding that I truly dislike aluminum props because as soon as I stir up bottom muck just one unlucky time they come out all dinged up instantly. A stainless will put up with occasional minor bottom-stir with little to no damage. I'm in a shallow and mucky lake...we stir bottom accidentally several times a year. Therefore with aluminums I usually replace annually. With stainless I'm often good for 5 years or so until I finally need to send it out for a reconditioning. So for me, stainless props have proven to be cheaper.

Soo...if I were ask you to rethink your recommendation if I were to INSIST on a stainless prop, exactly which model/brand of STAINLESS prop might you recommend for my ride?

Thanks so much, and please do NOT feel bad about this, your insight was and still is very, very beneficial despite our minor communication breakdown. All is well!

 

[craze1cars]

Re: A Hwsiii form is completed within...prop shopping. Thanks!

Ok...just going to vent a little tiny bit. Good news, bad news, confusion, and a touch of frustration:

GOOD NEWS! TODAY, I got the prop I ordered above...despite learning days earlier that it is not the actual prop Hswiii had recommended.

BETTER NEWS! I read the box, and it says EXACTLY this:
"RUBEX HR4
Excellent Cruising Performance
Four blade stainless steel propeller
Provides great stern lift and accelleration
High rake blade with large cupping design
Delivers powerful thrust and very smooth performance
Increased speed and fuel economy in the engine's mid-range
Excellent cruising performance"

Huh? So maybe, just maybe, I bought a GOOD prop for my usage that will help lift my stern to help cure my porpoising ills and provide better mid-range? Could I be that lucky?

CONFUSING NEWS! This is what it says EXACTLY on the Solas website:
"RUBEX HR4
Ultimate Performance
。Interchangeable with Flo-Torq & Vortex System
。SOLAS High Performance / Rubber Hub
。Three blade stainless steel propeller
。High performance for bass and bay boats
。High rake design for increased bow lift
。Extra cupping for great bite in high engine mount positions
。Cut down blade design reduces drag"

It appears that Solas cannot even count the blades on their own dang propellers? Thankfully, the one in the box is actually a 4 blade, which I wanted. And thankfully, it sounds like the prop I purchased entirely by accident ACTUALLY DOES PROVIDE STERN LIFT, and NOT bow lift, as was reported on Solas's very own website. I'm thinking the literature on the box is accurate....and the website has the wrong description listed for their HR4. I will probably fire Solas an email and see what they say.

BAD NEWS! I took my old prop off today to put this one on, and found a twisted prop shaft. I then measured about 1/16" of runout at the tip of the shaft. Seems that the buggered up aluminum prop that I am trying to replace caused some damage much deeper than just the prop itself. Oh well...season is almost over, maybe I'll just go ahead and put this new prop on for a test ride this evening, and see if I'm in a good RPM range....then will address the twisted prop shaft over the winter.

BAD NEWS! The new Solas/Rubex prop has longer splines than my stock prop, and therefore it will not even slide onto the shaft far enough to get past the twists in the splines. Therefore, until I replace this prop shaft with a new one, I will not even be able to test-drive this prop as I was hoping to do this evening...

Ahhh...the joys of having just bought a used boat with an unknown history. Thankfully I bought this thing for about 30% of value because of a number of other issues (not running when purchased...and previously misdiagnosed as a cracked engine block that is DOES NOT HAVE!! Yippee!) So the money spent on this surprise prop shaft replacement will be money I expected to spend on a new engine that it doesn't need...

Maybe someday I will be able to report my findings on this prop. And maybe someday I'll learn if this is a stern lifting or a bow lifting prop...because apparently Solas doesn't know...

 

[hwsiii]

Re: A Hwsiii form is completed within...prop shopping. Thanks!

The one prop they have that I know what it does is the 4 blade aluminum Amita. And it is excellent for many applications; mainly decreasing Prop Slip, ventilation and cavitation and lifting the stern to decrease drag and increase speed. I have called Solas in the states many times and what Mark tells me is that the Titan is the stern lifting SS prop. If you can get the prop shaft replaced and try the prop shortly, I am pretty sure I can get SOLAS to exchange the prop if it doesn't work correctly, because of their misleading advertising.


H

 

[craze1cars]

Re: A Hwsiii form is completed within...prop shopping. Thanks!

Now I'm actually sort of wondering if just MAYBE the Rubex HR4 is the interchangable hub version of the stainless fixed hub Titan 4? And maybe the Rubex 4 and Amita 4 you are recommending are their aluminum versions of the same...as one has an interchangeable hub and one a fixed hub.

I have sent an email to Solas for clarification. We'll see if they respond and I'll share what they say. If you actually have a contact you speak to on occasion who works there, I would be very curious to see what he says about this.

Not sure how soon I'll get the prop shaft replaced...never done one on a Volvo so not sure how involved it is. Time to start researching that and forget the prop for a while!

Thanks again for your generous offer of assistance on an exchange if it should be necessary. I'm hoping not...I definitely feel this one will be worthy of a test-drive before making any decision, I'm just not sure how soon I'll be able to do that with my new found problem.

 

[craze1cars]

Re: A Hwsiii form is completed within...prop shopping. Thanks!

My email to Solas was returned today by Marc, and he gave he his phone number so I called him and we chatted. Nice guy! All is now well in my world.

Their website had an error and I see it has already now been corrected...very reponsive! As we talked, he confirmed for me that the Rubex HR4 I purchased is indeed an identical blade design to their Titan 4 stainless...only the hubs are different. He also confirmed for me that the prop I purchased is a prop that is designed to give more stern left, hold plane at lower speeds, provide better hole-shot and cruising/midrange performance and economy. This is EXACTLY what I was looking for.

He did however comment that it is NOT typically a prop that would be used on a sterndrive as it is a very "high performance" prop. But given that my particular sterndrive is a bit more "high performance" oriented in terms of hull design, he thought it might actually work very well for this one and he felt it was definitely worthy of trying. He said I can expect to probably drop 300 or maybe 400 rpm since I stayed with the same 21" pitch as my aluminum 3 blade. Hopefully it doesn't drop too much to affect my hole-shot negatively, but since I'm starting at an over-rev of 5,000, dropping down to 4,700-ish would probably be OK. Time will tell. And he reminded me that if I need to take only an inch of pitch out of it I can probably run it thru a local prop shop cheaper/same price as paying return shipping and restocking fees thru I-boats...and the next step down from Solas would be a 19" version, which may put me back into an over-rev range.

So in theory, I think I'm good with what I got! Now I just gotta get that prop shaft fixed. Parts are ordered and I hope to have it repaired by the end of next week. Then maybe I can get it on the water and see if the theories match what happens in real life...

That was some great customer service with the personal attention Marc gave me. And for that reason alone, Solas impresses me. I hope the product will too. Will report again when I know more.

 

[hwsiii]

Re: A Hwsiii form is completed within...prop shopping. Thanks!

I have called Solas in the states many times and what Mark tells me is that the Titan is the stern lifting SS prop.

Mark is the person I have talked to, as well as Scott and he tries to be very helpful, I just found him to not know what he was talking about all the time. He told me the HR4 was a high rake with bow lift and the Titan was a stern lifting prop. But I would have to believe what the shipping box says it does. I am going to end up calling them in Taiwan I am sure before too long.


H

 

[craze1cars]

Re: A Hwsiii form is completed within...prop shopping. Thanks!

Results! I got the shaft replaced, and just got back from a weekend of fishing. Had the new prop on the whole time. 4 blade Rubex HR4 21 pitch stainless.

I rode around quite a bit with similar weight load as before, and spent some time testing. The air was substantially cooler...55 to 60 degrees, no other real changes. With the new prop I "accidentally" purchased, my RPMS are now dancing between 4,750 and 4,800. Absolutely perfect. I'm still in the upper end of my range but without over-revving. My top speed per GPS was 55, a 2 mph gain. The boat speedo was actually reading 61 to 62! I still can't get over that. It's jsut a bone-stock 5.0L 2 bbl carb'd motor in a 20 foot I/O, and the speedo goes beyond 60 mph with EASE and it gets there QUICK. Wow! If nothing else this is just a DARN fast boat!

And my holeshot is still excellent...I didn't time it with a stopwatch or anything, but it seems to pop right up on plane in less than 3 seconds. It always was quick out of the hole even with the old prop, therefore it is hard to quantify any substantial improvement, but it does seem to feel a touch quicker than before...it is definitely not any slower out of the hole than it was.

It seems to hold slower speeds just a TINY bit better, but not a huge improvement. Difficult to tell for sure because weather was too cold to do watersports. Porpoising at 30 mph is still substantial when trimmed out, but it does seem now that I can trim it out at least a LITTLE bit at that speed and still avoid porpoising...whereas with the other prop I had to keep it trimmed ALL the way down to stop the porpoise. So again I'd say it has just a TINY bit of improvement there. Once it gets to about 38 mph and faster, I can trim it way out and there is no porpoising at all.

Torque steer seems to be GONE...I think. Again, it was most pronounced when towing a skiier, which we did not do this weekend. So jury is still out. But there used to be some noticable torque steer even without a human drift-anchor, and that is now 100% gone, which is terriffic. The overall handling and steering feedback at any speed is much more controllable and precise than it was.

And of course it's smooOOOOth. I guess it's no surprise that going from a buggered up 3 blade prop/bent prop shaft, to a new 4 blade/straight prop shaft really took out all the little shakes and vibrations!

Overall, I'm satsified enough with this prop that I'll definitely be keeping it. But my very best testing will have to wait until next spring when the waters warm up again and I can start dragging humans around...our watersports season is now sadly over.

Thank you for all your help!

 

[hwsiii]

Re: A Hwsiii form is completed within...prop shopping. Thanks!

I am very glad it worked out for you even Accidentally. LOL



H