A strange "OIL" thing...

[TheOilDoc]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

The change intervals are different between the U.S and Europe because the oil rating systems are different. <br /><br />Typically the European oils must meet higher standards, and the manufacturers there make engines that utilize and demand those standards.<br /><br />That's why if you have a European car in the U.S. you've got to watch what oil you use. However, most automakers in the U.S. are recommending 7500 mile changes.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

OilDoc- <br /><br />Ignoring whether there is a need for it for now, since theres alot of threads/ opinions w.r.t. people looking for increased oil performance (synthetics, amsoil, royal purple, etc.) I'm curious. Where might using oil shipped over from Europe fit into the overall discussion? Any thoughts of possible benefits (beyond it's not necessary)?

 

[trog100]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

this one dosnt just apply to modern smaller engined european cars that have special requirments.. it goes back donkeys years..<br /><br />so whats being said here.. that americans are sold cr-ppier oil... ???<br /><br />if i buy an american brand name oil such as valvolene (as i do) in the UK i get a better product than the same stuff sold under the same name in the US..<br /><br />do these companies make two different qualities of product one for the US and one for europe.. i really do find this hard to believe..<br /><br />plus of course it defies logic.. if euro cars make more demands on their oil than americans ones do.. its us europeans that should be doing the changeing more often not u guys in america..<br /><br />nah.. i dont believe for one second that the answer is as simple as euroes getting better oil than americans..<br /><br />trog100

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

The U.S. API and the European ACEA standards are simply not the same, particularly where high temperature-high shear protection is concerned. API is based on minimum standards and AECA is based on a tier system. Furthermore, European engine manufacturers place their own unique, and usually very high, standards on the oil. They don't always just recommend an API oil like the American makers. European vehicles with extended change intervals usually specify a very high quality oil meeting the manufacture's own demanding criteria.<br /><br />

By LakeLivin:<br /><br />Where might using oil shipped over from Europe fit into the overall discussion? Any thoughts of possible benefits (beyond it's not necessary)?

Where the oil comes from isn't as important as the spec it meets. Look for "meets ACEA" on the bottle. Particularly A3, B3, B4. The highest quality oils will meet Mercedes Benz 229.1 and 229.3, BMW LL98, and VW 50200/50500, Porsche, specification, etc. Manufacturers like these will demand the most from an oil. <br /><br />

By trog100:<br /><br />so whats being said here.. that americans are sold cr-ppier oil... ???

No. The higher change intervals designated by some European engine manufacturers are a result of them specifying higher quality oils, sometimes with their own unique specifications. It is no secret that higher quality oils can be changed less frequently. Higher quality oils are certainly available in the U.S., and some engine manufacturers recommend them (Chevrolet Corvette, Dodge Viper, Ford Mustang Cobra R, etc.)<br /><br />

By trog100:<br /><br />if i buy an american brand name oil such as valvolene (as i do) in the UK i get a better product than the same stuff sold under the same name in the US.

It depends. Some particular Valvoline oils sold in America, like the "SynPower", will meet the European requirements including those of Mercedes, BMW, etc. Other Valvoline oils will not meet those specs. It's up to Americans what they want to pay and how often they want to change.<br /><br />

By trog100:<br /><br />do these companies make two different qualities of product one for the US and one for europe.. i really do find this hard to believe..

A company like Valvoline will make a variety of oils, both for the American and European standards. I'm not sure what Valvoline you're using, but there are some Valvoline oils available to Americans that will not meet the specifications of some of the European auto makers.<br /><br /><br />

plus of course it defies logic.. if euro cars make more demands on their oil than americans ones do.. its us europeans that should be doing the changeing more often not u guys in america..

You're missing the point. At the same time European auto makers are demanding more from their engines, they are also demanding more from their oil. In other words, Mercedes might push their change interval to 20,000 miles, but at the same time they are specifying a higher M-B 229.1/229.3 spec oil. In fact some M-B owners running that change interval who used a lesser American API oil, experienced engine failure.<br /><br /><br />

By trog100:<br /><br />nah.. i dont believe for one second that the answer is as simple as euroes getting better oil than americans..

It's not necessarily that they're getting better oil, it's that some European auto makers are specifying better oils. Thus their extended drain intervals.

 

[trog100]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

i dont suppose high quality euro car makers like bmw and mercedes specify any better oil than high quality US car makers do..<br /><br />i seem to remember that Cadillacs latest wonder is supposed to go 100000 miles between service intervals.. and i aint stupid enough to believe it does this on some cheapo off the shelf dyno oil.. come on dude..<br /><br />we dont all drive luxury bmws amd mercedes in euro land either we do have more mundane things like fords.. <br /><br />average english dudes just assume that the average known name brand name oil off the shelf is good enough for their average cars..they might look at the viscosity but thats about all.. what mercedes and bmw recommend in their luxery machines has very little to do with things..<br /><br />so when i go down to my parts store and buy some off the shelf valvolene £10 a gallon dyno 15/30 suitable for use in turbo charged engines is this any different than what u guys would buy.. ?? <br /><br />my car is a little old rover by the way.. i am quite sure it would be quite happy on cheaper oil.. i just waste money on the stuff like everyone else does..<br /><br />basically there is a difference between popular belief tween euros and american on oil change intervals.. and it goes back a long time and being as we all now drive universal japanese cars anyway.. i still cant except the need for this difference.. a japanese car is a japanese car whether it lives in the UK or it lives in the US..<br /><br />basically for the last forty years average americans have thought 3000 miles tween dyno changes and an average euro dude has thought 5000 miles.. the only sensible basis for it .. is yes americans do get cr-ppier oil than we do in the UK.. i dont realy believe this of course i recon its cos its just cheaper in US land so u waste more of it than we do.. either that or american oil adverts of better at selling the stuff on TV than ours are.. he he<br /><br />this 3000/5000 belief is still a popular one by the way.. on both sides of the pond.. its kinda bin dinged into us.. and its quite clearly wrong and out of date as u would no doubt agree..<br /><br />the other things thats changed over the years is "what sells cars".. time between service intervals is one of the things that sell cars.. perhaps more so in europe than the US.. i have seen manufacturers up their oil change intervals from 6000 to 10000 just because the competition has done the same.. they follow each other.. and all this has been going on along side of oil filters getting smaller.. fifteen years ago they used to be twice the size they are now.. not a great deal of sense in any of it to be honest..<br /><br />trog100

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

Modern oils cope with extended drain intervals but it isn't the only reason for a 20,000km oil change. Ever since the worldwide flooding of the automarket by cheap, disposable cars (Kia comes to mind) manufacturers have been steadily increasing service intervals and warranty periods in an attempt to gain market share.<br /><br />Consumers sometimes forget that changing oil is only a small part of a regular service. I service my car every 5000km (3000ml) and my boat every 50 hrs, changing the oil is only a small part of that service.<br /><br />As for waste oil, I am currently getting 20 cents a litre from recyclers a but that fluctuates with supply and demand. Seeing as they pay me for it, I doubt it is being dumped.<br /><br />Aldo

 

[LubeDude]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

Well, TheOilDoc, you have done a great job explaining it to him, Trog100, but it seems he dosnt want to believe that there oil is just a different spec. But it is!

 

[trog100]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

"their oil is a different spec.."<br /><br />still dont answer my simple qustion thow does..<br /><br />simple question === do americans get cr-ppier "off the shelf" oil than uk dudes.. <br /><br />pages full of techno-speak aint really a good substitute for a simple "yes" or "no".. <br /><br />and it aint a question of me "not wanting to believe" more a question of u "oil" dudes not managing to convince me..<br /><br />course my next question if u did manage to convince me.. would be another simple one..<br /><br />why have americans put up with an inferior product for all these years.. ???<br /><br />trog100

 

[Don S]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

why have americans put up with an inferior product for all these years..

Same reason you have put up with much higher fuel prices than we have for all these years.......

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

By trog100:<br /><br />simple question === do americans get cr-ppier "off the shelf" oil than uk dudes..

That is not a simple question. It is an ambiguous question. And you have not made clear what you mean by "crappier".<br /><br />First you have to understand that the oil standards between our two countries (API and ACEA) are very different. Most American oils will not meet ACEA standards, or be labeled as such. There is no reason for American oils to meet the ACEA standards since that standard does not apply in America or to American vehicles. Meeting ACEA would require additional testing and certification, and require a reorganization of our oil standards. Perhaps a Universal Standard. API stands for American Petroleum Institute.<br /><br />You also have to understand that many of the higher quality oils in Europe are a result of the European auto makers specifying them - on their own. Whether for a high-performance engine or to extend a drain interval. Again, the European auto makers generally specify higher standards of oil than American makers, and the higher tier standards of the ACEA tout oils with better high-temperature shear stress properties. <br /><br />Finally you have to understand that "Off the shelf" oils in America can mean anything. Again, most oils in America are not labeled with the ACEA approval. ACEA will not pertain to most American autos. However, there are oils available here that meet ACEA approval and some American oil makers specifically make European-grade oils for European autos that are driven here. Those oils are expensive and specialized.<br /><br />But a good analogy for your issue is Mercedes Benz. For some of their engines MB recommended using an American API oil only if an oil meeting their spec is not available. They specifically recommended against using Mobil 1 SuperSyn 0W-30, 5W-30, and 10W-30 because, although those oils met the highest API category, they did not meet MB 229.1 or ACEA A2 or A3. Yet those same oils were used as factory fill for some American performance engines.<br /><br /><br />

By trog100:<br /><br />pages full of techno-speak aint really a good substitute for a simple "yes" or "no"..

What's been discussed here so far is very basic. <br /><br />Different standards. Different engine makers. Different oils. Different change intervals.<br /><br />I will also say (since I've been to Europe) that the application of autos is very different between Europe and America. The oil usage reflects that. Most Americans own multiple, large, full-size autos. Pick-ups, SUV's, Vans, Off-Roaders, Hummers, etc. Not many "little old Rovers" here. Most Americans tow RV's, boats, motorcycles or snowmobiles, etc. They haul campers and toppers. They off-road to hunting and fishing areas. The roads are covered with these autos. These are examples of severe duty service, requiring shorter oil change intervals. You just don't see many vehicles used to this extent in Europe. <br /><br />I'd also like to point out that your perception of 3,000 mile oil change intervals in America is off. I don't know of any auto maker that recommends 3,000 mile oil changes. Most are 7,500 miles or more. I also believe you are wrong about the Cadillac's 100,000 mile change interval. Cadillac has a 100,000 mile tune-up schedule, not oil change interval. I believe their latest oil change interval on the Northstar is 12,000 miles.<br /><br />You also have to consider the cost of oil in Europe. American oil is relatively cheap in comparison. Americans appear to be able to afford oil changes easier than Europeans. And really, cost is the only advantage to extending drain intervals.<br /><br /><br />

By trog100:<br /><br />and it aint a question of me "not wanting to believe" more a question of u "oil" dudes not managing to convince me..

No intention of convincing anyone. It appears you know all the answers already, which is odd since you started this thread.<br /><br /><br />

why have americans put up with an inferior product for all these years.. ???

The worst product I ever owned was a Renault Alliance. It was European made. I don't believe Americans put up with those anymore.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

trog, maybe i'm wrong, but seems you're missing one of oildocs points; that the ACEA specs are based on a tiered system and the API a minimum standard system. <br /><br />So OilDoc, presumably, one (or some of) the ACEA tiers might be roughly comparable to a specific API rated spec oil? And it's possible that some of the better US API rated oils might meet the standards of some of the higher ACEA spec oils, but due to the API rating system that wouldn't necessarily show up on the bottle cause the API rating systems doesn't incorporate the 'precision' (prolly a better word here) of the tiered ACEA specs?

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

So OilDoc, presumably, one (or some of) the ACEA tiers might be roughly comparable to a specific API rated spec oil?

Yes, and I'm sure some of the API formulations overlap some of the ACEA specifications without modification. <br /><br />The highest oil standards will come from the high-end European auto makers (Mercedes Benz, BMW, Volvo, etc). Even some of our highest-end oils here will not meet those specifications.

 

[trog100]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

first of all oildoc.. thanks for your genuine attempt at explaining the subject..<br /><br />so we have two basic speciications.. API.. american petroleum institute.. and ACEA which i assume is european and covers a wider spectrum than the older american standards..<br /><br />the other problem thow is not being able to claim.. conforms to spec XXXX on the can might just be that the makers have chosen not to spend the vast fortunes needed for the necessary tests to be able to claim conformation.. if tested such a product could well be good enough..<br /><br />so not carrying the spec label only really means the product has not been tested it dosnt mean that if put to the test it wouldnt pass..<br /><br />i still think that as a general rule american off the shelf oil (except for minutia) is pretty much the same as UK off the shelf oil..<br /><br />lots of folks still look for the "best" product.. me.. i realized this was an impossibility years ago and just settle for "good enough".. <br /><br />here is a link for anybody interested in oil standards..<br /><br /> http://www.infineum.com/information/tables.html <br /><br />in the UK we have something called the "consumer protection act" the basis of this is that a product has to be suitable for the purpose it was sold for.. <br /><br />with oil its pretty simple.. suitable for use in all turbocharged petrol and diesel based engines.. it would have to mean just that.. suitable for use in all normally asperated petrol and diesel engines.. again would have to mean just that..<br /><br />do u guys have any kinda law like that..<br /><br />the other thing of interest is "reclaimed oil".. in the UK its quite an industry.. how about the US..<br /><br />trog100<br /><br />ps.. and that 3000 vrs 5000 mile thing wasnt based on what car makers now recommend.. it was just based on common belief (myth..??) one that seems to have existed for the last forty years to my knowledge..<br /><br />ps 2.. and "my little rover" with it smallish 1.4 litre high revving petrol engine developing 110 hp probably makes more demands on its oil than the average american SUV towing a trailer or not.. as i said earlier not a great deal of sense in any of it..

 

[tommays]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

http://www.gm.com/automotive/vehicle_shopping/suv_facts/300_env_emissions/6_oil_life_system.html <br /><br />well like i said before GM recomends you let the oil life system decide based on how the car is driven it can be from 3000 to 12000 miles <br /><br /><br />tommays

 

[trog100]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

a 2004 cadillac suv by the way goes 25000 km.. makers recommendation tween oil changes.. which is about 17000 miles..<br /><br />trog100

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

edit

 

[trog100]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

i love that edit trick.. he he<br /><br />your info must be out of date tommays.. it quite clearly says 25000k which is roughly 17000 miles.. on this link.. tis the latest 2004 suv thow..<br /><br /> http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/rr/04srx.htm <br /><br />times they are a changeing and the recommended time tween oil changes seems to be changing with em.. i wonder if that particular GM motor is supposed to use the american type oil or the supposedly superior european stuff.. <br /><br />trog100

 

[Richard Petersen]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

Here I go again. I went to 10,000 miles between changes when they sealed the engines from outside air. Like totally man. Where is the dirty and abrasive air are going to get into the engine? All my cars go 120,000 and more always passing NJ emissions and not becoming oil burners. Pay for the oil executives 4th home. He needs it more than us.

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

Member trog100, I fail to understand why you are arguing about the Cadillac oil change interval. You originally said it was 100,000 miles (using some special oil). You were so far wrong, that arguing now over who's information is more current seems egocentric. BTW, the information you linked was written back in 2003. <br /><br />You don't appear to understand that there are several Cadillac engine options that currently use the "oil life system" mentioned by tommay's 2005 publication. And they do not require a special oil like you imply. <br /><br />Your perceived "myth" about Americans also seems to be off. Most Americans change their oil according to the manufacturer's recommendations, not every 3,000 miles. But you do make a good point that Americans have opportunities that Europeans might not, and thus are able to change their oil using a more conservative approach, or whenever they wish.<br /><br />Environmentally, Americans re-claim and recycle their used oil on a much larger scale than Europe. It is against our laws here to dispose of oil improperly, or to "dump" it into the environment as you say.<br /><br />As for American oil and European oil being the same, I still don't think you get it. They are not the same, although I suppose your theory that they "could" be the same is worth recognizing since there could be an overlap somewhere between the two different oil rating systems. Special European oils are available in America for European autos driven here.<br /><br />Your perception of a European 1.4L rover having more demand on an oil than an American SUV pulling a trailer simply can't be justified. I've been to Europe and, in general, your country uses automobiles much differently. <br /> <br />Throughout this thread you appear to be trying to make a point. But it is unclear what that point is.<br /><br /><br />Member Richard Peterson, tightly sealed air filtration is a benefit. And there is probably nothing wrong with 10,000 mile change intervals, depending on your use. But understand that most of the contaminates in engine oil will come from the combustion process and metal wear. Oil break-down due to heat and shear forces is also a concern. Air contaminates are only a small part of the big picture when it comes to change intervals.

 

[Richard Petersen]

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

There are 3 killers of oil. Dirt, heat and water. I do not allow any of them in my engine. Honda and Nissan thrive on 10,000 mile changes. To bad American engines can't.